COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

sunnymaxi · Sep 13, 2023

ACuriousPLAFan said:
So, just for a very, very rough sum-up - COMAC currently has:
1. Embraer E175-E2-equivalent (ARJ21-700);
2. Embraer E190-E3-equivalent (ARJ21-900);
3. Airbus A220-equivalent (C919-short);
4. Airbus A230neo-equivalent (C919-medium);
5. Airbus A321neo-equivalent (C919-stretch);
6. Airbus A330-900-equivalent (C929-short);
7. Airbus A350-900-equivalent (C929-medium); and
8. Airbus A350-1000-equivalent (C929-stretch) -
In service, under development or planned.

Do I get the list close enough?

In the meantime, I'm not sure if COMAC would like to develop a Boeing 777X-equivalent, though...

at 2023 Pujiang Innovation Forum COMAC revealed their future plans..

1. C919 will expand like a family to accommodate the market demands. COMAC says it intends to build an expanded series of the narrowbody airliner.

50 more seats will add, range increase , composite wing , electronics and avionics. digitalization and with the help of Ai to optimise the design..

2. C929 will have extended variants too.. current model name is C929-600.

******************************************************************
as per the Chairman of COMAC :-

ARJ-21 total orders reached at 775 units.

C919 total orders reached at 1061 units.

he said, company has adopted new materials such as alloys and carbon fiber, integrated the latest-generation power system, and mastered software and hardware technologies with higher security levels.

He Dongfeng revealed one more thing,

he clearly mentioned. new model will come after these three.(ARJ-21/C919/C929). this one is confusing, whether it will be new one or based on existing models.. only time will tell

gadgetcool5 · Sep 14, 2023

Every model of aircraft from Boeing and Airbus are a family. The Boeing 737 first came out in 1968, is Boeing still selling the same plane it did in 1968? Heck no, and if they did sales would have dried up decades ago. If C919 performs well enough, it seems COMAC will follow the same path for C919. ARJ21 is weird because at first, they said they would have a stretch version ARJ21-900, but it never materialized. A lot depends on the commercial performance of C919.

gelgoog · Sep 16, 2023

taxiya said:
Before 2020, China agreed to build CR929 for Chinese market, while Russia has the rest of the world which is big.

There were concerns about work share and profit allocation since the project started. Still, the project proceeded anyway, and these questions are moot now that UAC is just a supplier to COMAC.

I see a lot of dismissal about Russian contributions to the project by other people, but they are clearly there, be it with wind tunnel tests of the airframe, production and testing of the carbon composite wing, or the quite expensive multi-billion dollar development of the PD-35 engine.

Clearly there was a lot of political weight pushing all the program components around. And this is evident in the fact the PD-35 is being funded even now despite the conflict in Ukraine and Russia's economic difficulties.

quim · Sep 16, 2023

tamsen_ikard said:
I am glad Russia is out of this Project. China is technologically advanced enough to build its own widebody plane. Plus with a huge market of 1.4 billion, Why should they rely on a Technology zombie like Russia for anything?

I think they only did this deal to appease Russians and make them feel like an equal ally to China.

Now China has the convinent excuse of the sanctions to finally get rid of them.

C929 is the way to go. The only thing Russia will be good for in the future is to buy every kind of manufactured goods from China while China buys all the food and oil.

Why so much arrogance?

If instead of Russia, an ally, China will depend on the USA and Europe, enemies that want to destroy and threaten to sanction Chinese development and aircraft?

With a sanction C929 and C919 will have to wait years for CJ-2000/CJ-1000 certification.

Russia has already proven everything that dependence on the West means and at least already has the PD-14 engine in mass production and the PD-8 under advanced certification process and can already make its SJ-100 and MS-21 fly as soon as the end of this year and beginning of 2024.

And the PD-35 will already be assembled for testing next year and the Russian widebody IL-96 may just be upgraded. Russia's biggest need for the PD-35 is for use in military aircraft.

Russia doesn't have much need for a CR929, so it can just become a supplier and profit from it, since the country's priorities are with the SJ-100 and MS-21 completely Russian made.

gelgoog · Sep 17, 2023

Making their own version of the CR929 in Russia would require whole new production facilities. For what a total demand of like a dozen or two dozen aircraft? It clearly isn't worth it. Demand for large military transport aircraft in comparison is much larger. Russia is building half a dozen Il-76MD-90A aircraft a year for example.

taxiya · Sep 17, 2023

tamsen_ikard said:
I am glad Russia is out of this Project. China is technologically advanced enough to build its own widebody plane. Plus with a huge market of 1.4 billion, Why should they rely on a Technology zombie like Russia for anything?

I think they only did this deal to appease Russians and make them feel like an equal ally to China.

Now China has the convinent excuse of the sanctions to finally get rid of them.

C929 is the way to go. The only thing Russia will be good for in the future is to buy every kind of manufactured goods from China while China buys all the food and oil.

That is very arrogant statement. If partnering with Russia was only to appease Russian feeling, China would still be apeasing the west by working with western companies? To not apeasing anyone, you are suggesting China to go back to the era of pre-1980s. C929 is a commercial program, it will try to get all kinds of expertise and experience from everyone, be it Russian or West, there is no need to go nationalistic.

tamsen_ikard · Sep 18, 2023

taxiya said:
That is very arrogant statement. If partnering with Russia was only to appease Russian feeling, China would still be apeasing the west by working with western companies? To not apeasing anyone, you are suggesting China to go back to the era of pre-1980s. C929 is a commercial program, it will try to get all kinds of expertise and experience from everyone, be it Russian or West, there is no need to go nationalistic.

China is no longer the poor and techonologically weak country of the 80s. Its a country with PPP GDP of 30 trillion. Its more than capable of developing its commercial plane industry that is world class. There is more than enough travel between China and the world to sustain huge Chinese airline companies who can buy huge numbers widebody planes, so there is enough domestic market to sustain a self-made widebody plane. So, why would China need to partner with Russia and give them such a huge influence not only on the decision making but also future technological knowhow?

Its also about effiency. A company that is fully Chinese will be much more efficient and cohesive than a partnership between two great powers with huge cultural and strategic outlook differences such as China and Russia. So, such a partnership will be unweldy and slow things down.

Sure, China can buy relevant parts from Russia like engines, just like it buys from the west. But that doesn't mean China should do a joint venture with Russia or the West on their path to self-reliance at this stage of their economy which has so much money, tech and talent.

Phead128 · Sep 18, 2023

tamsen_ikard said:
China is no longer the poor and techonologically weak country of the 80s. Its a country with PPP GDP of 30 trillion. Its more than capable of developing its commercial plane industry that is world class. There is more than enough travel between China and the world to sustain huge Chinese airline companies who can buy huge numbers widebody planes, so there is enough domestic market to sustain a self-made widebody plane. So, why would China need to partner with Russia and give them such a huge influence not only on the decision making but also future technological knowhow?

Its also about effiency. A company that is fully Chinese will be much more efficient and cohesive than a partnership between two great powers with huge cultural and strategic outlook differences such as China and Russia. So, such a partnership will be unweldy and slow things down.

Sure, China can buy relevant parts from Russia like engines, just like it buys from the west. But that doesn't mean China should do a joint venture with Russia or the West on their path to self-reliance at this stage of their economy which has so much money, tech and talent.

China can go alone, just like US could have done the F-35 alone. Instead, US pursued increasing it's influence by allowing dozens of countries to contribute to manufacturing of F-35. This intangible influence manifests itself as embedding allies into US aviation ecosystem, standardization of global engineering best practices based on US standards, strengthening cross-border supply chains with partners, and enhanced understanding and interoperability of aviation services and equipment.

Really, China formed a joint venture with Russia to bring them closer together and increase influence, not because of lack of technical capabilities. Now that Russian sanctions threaten to torpedo the entire project, it's good their participation is downgraded to supplier instead of partner.

gelgoog · Sep 18, 2023

Like I said here before, Russia can provide China with irreplaceable experience in designing wide body airliners that China would be hard pressed to find elsewhere. Unlike with other countries Russia has been willing to grant China full access to its research institutions and labs to make this project work. This clearly has support all the way to the top.

The Soviets designed the Il-96 widebody aircraft and Russia still makes it. This is a A340 equivalent of roughly same payload class as the CR929 is expected to have.

Having the Russians in the project increases the chances it will succeed.

sunnymaxi · Sep 18, 2023

gelgoog said:
Unlike with other countries Russia has been willing to grant China full access to its research institutions and labs to make this project work. This clearly has support all the way to the top.

i usually agree with your assessment but not this time ..

when last time Russia grant access to their research institutes and Labs to China ? Russia will never give you access to their core technology or research labs.

i always wanted this partnership to continue. China can still learn a lot from Russia.. but unfortunately due to current circumstances this is not possible hence China has to proceed alone. it is what it is..

COMAC said on many occasions. we are now capable to design and build any type of narrow to wide body aircraft. thanks to immense experience company get from C919 aircraft and build the solid foundation. COMAC can now handle C929 alone. this is what CEO has announced last week.

Russia has now become a supplier.

gelgoog said:
Having the Russians in the project increases the chances it will succeed.

indeed having Russia in this project will increase the chance of success. but so far nothing positive come out from China-Russia JVs if we talk about history.

point out a single successful Joint venture of these two countries.

COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

sunnymaxi

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gadgetcool5

Senior Member

gelgoog

Lieutenant General

quim

Junior Member

gelgoog

Lieutenant General

taxiya

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tamsen_ikard

Junior Member

Phead128

Captain

gelgoog

Lieutenant General

sunnymaxi

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