COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Really….
Aviation industry is very conservative in the airliner industry. your claim was that “ONLY Russia has this technology to make carbon composite wings out of an autoclave.” My point is that’s not true as written first. Second that Russia who is just starting with it themselves had to consult to get the technology.

Click to expand...

Perhaps he should have said that "ONLY Russia has managed to make this technology commercially available ... soon" I suppose this assumes Russia will continue in the CR929 project and deliver.

BTW apart from the Chinese company the Russians consulted with, did they consult Lockheed Martin? The CR929 is a joint project after all so consulting with the Chinese company wouldn't be out of the ordinary. Clearly if the Chinese company would do the entire thing itself, it wouldn't require the Russia participation for the wing. Therefore the Russians are bringing some other at least minor to major components to completing this technology.

Russia developed the wing technology for the MC-21. The CR929 wing would basically be a larger wing using the same basic concepts.
Sure, Aerocomposit consulted with Diamond Aircraft. And a bunch of other companies. They have been working on the wing for like a decade.
China could certainly replicate this technology by themselves but they would need to redo this effort.

China can also make their own engines and whatever. But the collaboration retires risk and enables them to get a flying airplane out much sooner. It is easy to underestimate the difficulties in making your own modern transport aircraft. The cooperation with Russia means the process will be much smoother than it would be otherwise. The ARJ21 and C919 programs are good examples of the problems doing it alone can have and they depended on much less advanced technologies.

Russia is between half a decade and a decade ahead of the Chinese civilian transport aircraft industry in terms of maturity. For example the Sukhoi Superjet 100 entered service in 2011 and the Comac ARJ21 entered service in 2016. Even then the Sukhoi has a more advanced design. The Russians also never completely stopped building large transport aircraft. They still build Il-96 and Tu-204 aircraft even if it is at a snail's pace.

The Russian aircraft industry and government certification facilities also seem to be a lot more up to speed with the rest of the world aviation industry. The Russians don't need to send aircraft for testing for ice conditions to Canada and wait a year or more until they can do the tests.

They consulted to develop for the MC21 the Comac is a bonus here. Lockheed wasn’t in on this. Australian firm FACC AG, European firms Solvay, Mtorres, and Stevic.

you are confusing small firms with big system integration and testing capability.
Russia has atleast 4 aviation plants that can do final integration to produce a Civilian aircraft. and all those are not geographical close and they are faraway from expensive cities.. so its both depth and breath of skills to generate redundancy and reliability in manufacturing.

when you see big fuel tanks and missiles on chopper that fly low and fast shows the practical demonstration of composite technology and it has fighter style radar that can do dead/sead. so this is not composites for light duties but heavier stuff relative to size. it is the non-obvious things that make difference.

The upgrade has touched endurance as well, now the helicopter can operate 14 days off the base without maintenance. Only refueling and ammo replenishment is needed".
One of the key areas of continuous researches relates to the deadweight reduction, allowing for larger payload and longer operational radius. This problem, in particular, is resolved by wider use of composite materials. For instance, modern Ka-52 copters are over 50 percent made of composites.

Click to expand...

Eh I think cooperating with Russia was probably the right move here. China can still learn quite a bit from Russia in the civil aviation sector especially in terms of tech like composites and engines, not to mention the certification and testing process. Just look at how much trouble the C919 is having just due to US sanctions.

It would be good to pump some cash into the russian aerospace industry just to have a backup supplier in case the US goes with the nuclear option and bans engine sales. Not to mention it would upgrade ties and further bring Russia into China's fold. In the meantime China can adopt a policy of import substitution to slowly replace russian parts.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

They consulted to develop for the MC21 the Comac is a bonus here. Lockheed wasn’t in on this. Australian firm FACC AG, European firms Solvay, Mtorres, and Stevic.

Click to expand...

Bah. Solvay used to provide the fibers and adhesives. Then the US started the sanctions on Aerocomposit and Russia had to make their own products to replace what Solvay provided and test and re-certify everything. MTorres and Stevic make machine tools used in the production line. Did you really expect Aerocomposit to do everything by themselves by banging rocks together or something?

sndef888 said:

It would be good to pump some cash into the russian aerospace industry just to have a backup supplier in case the US goes with the nuclear option and bans engine sales. Not to mention it would upgrade ties and further bring Russia into China's fold. In the meantime China can adopt a policy of import substitution to slowly replace russian parts.

Click to expand...

its lack of understanding of Aviation industry that cash can speed up things beyond certain point. It is not software that more cash can hire more people easily as everyone is virtually connected and skills are reasonably known.
funds, factories and labor already allocated for projects in Russia for coming 10 years or more. so i doubt much deviation.
OAK is building advanced version of IL96 so its logical they want to cooperate C929. and will offer various subsystems that they will certify as part of IL96 project. we have to see implementation of C929. if it gets delayed than IL96 otherwise C929 will be produced in Russia. I have some doubts Chinese airlines willing to change from Airbus/Boeing so rapidly to make production in China financially sustainable. than there is military side of creating airborne command posts Il-96-400M. that aircraft goes much beyond than anything created untill this point.

The Russian company is a long-standing partner of the Chinese aerospace industry. Since 2004, it has been supplying China Aviation Supplies Imp. & Exp. Corporation (CASC) with titanium billets used in the manufacture of die-forgings for Airbus programs. The company’s cooperation with AVIC International Holding Corporation, one of China’s largest aerospace manufacturers, spans over 10 years.
VSMPO-AVISMA acts as a supplier for China’s flagship commercial aviation program of the C919 medium-haul jetliner. Under the agreement with the aircraft designer, Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China (COMAC), VSMPO-AVISMA will be supplying 12 different die-forging types through to 2021. The company is already tooling up for the task. Certification of the Chinese die-forgings is expected to be completed in 2017. The company will supply China with more than 20 different die-forging types to be used in the manufacture of aircraft wings, empennage, and pylons.

Click to expand...

pmc said:

its lack of understanding of Aviation industry that cash can speed up things beyond certain point. It is not software that more cash can hire more people easily as everyone is virtually connected and skills are reasonably known.
funds, factories and labor already allocated for projects in Russia for coming 10 years or more. so i doubt much deviation.
OAK is building advanced version of IL96 so its logical they want to cooperate C929. and will offer various subsystems that they will certify as part of IL96 project. we have to see implementation of C929. if it gets delayed than IL96 otherwise C929 will be produced in Russia. I have some doubts Chinese airlines willing to change from Airbus/Boeing so rapidly to make production in China financially sustainable. than there is military side of creating airborne command posts Il-96-400M. that aircraft goes much beyond than anything created untill this point.

Click to expand...

Sorry for the noob question but what's the difference between the IL-96 and CR929? Why doesn't Russia just continue devt of the IL-96 or rope China in? They look like they fulfil the same capacity/range parameters. Or is the difference improved efficiency due to using 2 engines?

sndef888 said:

Sorry for the noob question but what's the difference between the IL-96 and CR929? They look like they fulfil the same capacity/range parameters. Or is the difference improved efficiency due to using 2 engines?

Click to expand...

2 engine, composites and latest avionics/aerodynamics will make it more efficient.
It will be like A330NEO vs A350.

pmc said:

2 engine, composites and latest avionics/aerodynamics will make it more efficient.
It will be like A330NEO vs A350.

Click to expand...

I see, looking through the wiki of the IL-96 it seems to be an outdated design that the Russian government is just propping up for face reasons to use as a presidential transport.

The ukraine situation is quite concerning for the CR929 project though. Seems like quite a few components will still be manufactured by European companies which will no doubt pull out in case of any ukraine invasion.