You have to have all the domestic substitutes ready before you do a stunt like this though. It is very hard since economical viability is very important for civilian aircraft.
COMAC C919
- Thread starter Deino
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You have to have all the domestic substitutes ready before you do a stunt like this though. It is very hard since economical viability is very important for civilian aircraft.
You kind of have it back to front -- in terms of having military variants of a civil commercial airliner, you typically first want the base aircraft to be successful and viable in its role first before pursuing a military variant.
In this case, if the goal is to attain a domestic variant of C919 with complete domestic subsystems, you need a domestic variant of C919 to be sufficiently competitive to other products on the market (in this case, other modern narrow body airliners from Boeing and Airbus).
If you build a military variant of C919 using domestic subsystems which are not sufficiently competitive, that doesn't help your civil commercial airline variant goals, because it will not be competitive with the likes of other modern narrow bodies.
In other words, the rate limiting step/bottleneck is having sufficiently competitive domestic subsystems.
What sahureka wants is a "sanction proof" C919 variant, but the problem is a sanction proof C919 without sufficiently competitive domestic subsystems will not be competitive against modern narrow bodies in the rest of the market, and investing money for a situation where China is cut off from all foreign commercial aircraft and subsystems (for C919 exclusively or not) is probably not the best goal right now, but should instead be focusing on actual competitive domestic subsystems.
as I wrote, let's hope never, but this hypothetical "sanctions-proof" C919(X) may have to operate in a Western bloc sanctions and embargo situation that could border on the current situation they have implemented against Russia, so the problem the competitiveness (I think only initially) of this C-919(X) compared to the various Boeing and Airbus models would become a secondary question.
I understand where you're coming from, but as it currently stands they probably deem it to be more likely that they're able to get successful domestic subsystems ready for a domestic C919 variant which is both relatively competitive and domestic (thus sanctions proof), before the US/west carries out sanctions that are so intense that either existing C919s are unable to continue operating, or more importantly the rest of the existing airbus and boeing narrowbody fleet is unable to operate.
Given that, the extra money spent on a "sanctions proof" C919 which is insufficiently competitive, would be seen as a waste, and better spent on expediting the more competitive domestic subsystems instead.
i have told many times..
COMAC is not worried about sanctions.
domestic supply chain has been established. in case of emergency, C919 will jump on domestic parts. include engines.
the most important 'aircraft assembling software' have already been replaced with indigenous one. most of the large machine tools are domestically produced.
I'm going to put up a tweet on this later, but evidences would show 737 program has serious concerns and a successful C919 is really bad for them
TBH, instead of trying to force a rapid and complete indigenization of the COMAC C919 in order to fit the needs of the PLA - China could in fact contract Xi'an (or Shaanxi/jointly with Shaanxi) to develop clean-sheet a jetliner that is purpose-built for PLAAF and PLANAF usage from the onset, with little to no relations with the COMAC C919 - With covert support from COMAC whenever necessary, of course.
Japan's Kawasaki P-1 maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) is the classic example of this route.
In this regard, China can certainly follow Japan's methodology in developing jetliners which appear in the form of civilian commercial jetliners, but with military standards for purely military needs by the PLA. Also, unlike the C919, such jetliner will be free from the various constrains that comes with commercial jetliners, particularly in terms of cost, efficiency and reliability.
Speaking of engines alone, China already has the WS-20 and AEP1300, both of which are suitable for A320 and 737-sized aircrafts (of which the P-1 being also in the same category).
In fact, the Xi'an Y-20 (especially the B variant onwards) large airlifter is already as indigenous as it is. So, if China really does need military-grade jetliners like the Kawasaki P-1, AVIC can certainly develop one, especially since they already have the experience and knowhow of developing large-sized aircrafts through the Y-20 project.
Needless to say, though, unlike the P-1 which has been developed by Kawasaki as MPA from the get-go - AVIC can develop said military-grade jetliner to be a universal platform for multiple uses, i.e. AEW&C, EW and ECM, ELINT and SIGINT, ASW, executive transport, and AACP.
Perhaps it's time to revive the Y-10 project... But the questions are: Is it necessary? And is it worth it?
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lcloo
Captain
I believe the original purpose of creating COMAC was to have a separate entity that is comitted entirely on civilian aircraft, as oppose to having AVIC undertaking the project. Therefore by developing military variants of C919 is a step going backward on the original intention.
Rather than C919, AVIC could have develop a shortened variant of Y20, or more dramtically they could convert some second hand Boeing 737Max for military use. PLAAF is not unfamiliar with operating 737 since they have a few airforce VIP version of B737. And there are plenty of B737 in second hand markets.
Of course the induction of 737 is just a stop gap option and can buy time for a new true domestic design similar to C919 size class, and will not complicate the status of COMAC as a civilian air plane maker. Also using a B737 can create confusions among the opponents even for a short few moments, during an air encounter.
The ultimate new design aircraft would take a decade or two from planning stage to meaningful production numbers in air force service.
Rather than C919, AVIC could have develop a shortened variant of Y20, or more dramtically they could convert some second hand Boeing 737Max for military use. PLAAF is not unfamiliar with operating 737 since they have a few airforce VIP version of B737. And there are plenty of B737 in second hand markets.
Of course the induction of 737 is just a stop gap option and can buy time for a new true domestic design similar to C919 size class, and will not complicate the status of COMAC as a civilian air plane maker. Also using a B737 can create confusions among the opponents even for a short few moments, during an air encounter.
The ultimate new design aircraft would take a decade or two from planning stage to meaningful production numbers in air force service.
COMAC have strict rules since the beginning. stay away from military industrial complex. teamed up with western suppliers to access the parts/components. learn from them and cultivate civil aviation industry in the mainland. they have been successful so far.
this is one the main reasons why AECC has established in 2016. COMAC have decision making power in AECC.. talking about CJ engine series.