COMAC C919

tphuang said:

Maybe let's get this aircraft into more airlines and work on getting domestic engine and other components on there first, before talking about military variant? COMAC's goal is to become a legitimate civil aerospace company. Not a great thing to dive into military stuff this soon.

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Why...?

Hire more people, get a new design team. You can do parallel development. Commercialization of the C919 is always going to be a priority I'm sure, but I fail to see why the PLA shouldn't be looking into military applications for this airframe, and why COMAC shouldn't entertain such ideas.

HighGround said:

Why...?

Hire more people, get a new design team. You can do parallel development. Commercialization of the C919 is always going to be a priority I'm sure, but I fail to see why the PLA shouldn't be looking into military applications for this airframe, and why COMAC shouldn't entertain such ideas.

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To have a military program, you have to first be able to make it sanction proof. That means the program as it stands does not work as a military program.

Let's say they get there in 5 years, then you have to see whether it makes sense to do so. You have a wide fleet of Y-20 and Y-9 in service with PLA. They have their own maintenance and support all set up. What kind of gains are you getting with an aircraft that's smaller than Y-20 and likely more expensive than Y-9.

but probably more importantly, you'd want to sell COMAC aircraft in international markets. Do you want military application associated it when the market for narrowbody aircraft is huge even if we don't include Europe and North America?

At the current rate, there is a chance Boeing will exit civilian aerospace market at some point in the future. Does COMAC really want to have military associated with it.

In terms of military/civil fusion, you are already getting all the gains by having all the major domestic aircraft companies like CAC, Shaanxi AC, Xian AC & such making different part of the plane. Having larger # of civilian C919 orders mean that these factories/suppliers can make investments with money from C919 program that can be redirected to military program later.

so you have to look at this and see what kind of gains you truly get

I discussed a little bit about the follow on projects to C919. I think it's important for COMAC to be thinking about what to do for narrowbody segment longer term

COMAC will have a long road ahead. Putting new C919 models into service. Replacing foreign made components with Chinese made ones. And switching to composite wing sometime in the future.

Other than that I think the obvious routes are the introduction of the C929, and designing a more modern replacement for ARJ21. Russia at one point had plans for an aircraft design to compete with A220 called the Superjet 130NG. This was basically a Sukhoi Superjet with extended fuselage and composite wings. I think the A220 class is where the current hole in the market is.

The question is how much larger C919 can get. Normally, aircraft end up getting larger and larger as aircraft makers reduce weight, improves range & aerodynamic profile. And then they do a re-engine and voila. The stretched version becomes the most optimized version of the aircraft. So yes, they do need something that's stretched and can compete with A321NEO

I just noticed C919 actually has a slightly larger wing (in terms of wing area) than A320 series. If they put some kind of winglet at the end and stretch a few rows, they can get probably a MAX9 sized aircraft next. Do a second stretch and they have something that can challenge A321. Of course, need a larger engine for that also.

Once that happens, you basically vacate the lower end of single body. And then you can have something that competes with E2/A220 there

gelgoog said:

COMAC will have a long road ahead. Putting new C919 models into service. Replacing foreign made components with Chinese made ones. And switching to composite wing sometime in the future.

Other than that I think the obvious routes are the introduction of the C929, and designing a more modern replacement for ARJ21. Russia at one point had plans for an aircraft design to compete with A220 called the Superjet 130NG. This was basically a Sukhoi Superjet with extended fuselage and composite wings. I think the A220 class is where the current hole in the market is.

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Introduce variants for C919 to more passengers.

That’s the general idea. Alternatively though you could add more fuel to increase range. It’s the Industry’s standard practice. Stretch, new engine, new wing. LR. Of course that’s not the only set of modifications that are the norm. You also have Business jet, Freighter versions that can be looked at.

tphuang said:

The question is how much larger C919 can get. Normally, aircraft end up getting larger and larger as aircraft makers reduce weight, improves range & aerodynamic profile. And then they do a re-engine and voila. The stretched version becomes the most optimized version of the aircraft. So yes, they do need something that's stretched and can compete with A321NEO.

I just noticed C919 actually has a slightly larger wing (in terms of wing area) than A320 series. If they put some kind of winglet at the end and stretch a few rows, they can get probably a MAX9 sized aircraft next. Do a second stretch and they have something that can challenge A321. Of course, need a larger engine for that also.

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For that, AECC should work on developing more powerful variants of the CJ-1000, i.e. CJ-1000B, CJ-1000C, etc etc.

In the meantime, COMAC can work on stretched variants of the C919, perhaps giving the -100, -200, -300 etc for initial and stretched variants.

Or maybe COMAC could just forgo the C919 altogether, and start working on the C939 (and its variants) as a clean-sheet, direct, better successor to the C919 (plus having an even higher degree of indigenization than the C919) that is capable of competing face-to-face with Airbus's A321-XLR and Boeing's NMA on the future narrowbody market.

For the later option, the general idea would be for the C919 to be seen as an experimental platform for China's large-sized jetliner development programs, while for the C939 to be seen as a truly mature, complete and competitive platform.
(Perhaps the same can be done for C(R)929 and C949?)

tphuang said:

Once that happens, you basically vacate the lower end of single body. And then you can have something that competes with E2/A220 there

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Aren't E2 and A220 considered regional jets instead of narrowbody jetliners? Perhaps further development on the CJ-500 (meant for ARJ-21) could be used on ARJ-21's successor.

ACuriousPLAFan said:

AECC should work on developing more powerful variants of the CJ-1000, i.e. CJ-1000B, CJ-1000C, etc etc.

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CJ-1000 will expand like a family. so definitely we will see more advance variants of this engine in near future.

ACuriousPLAFan said:

Perhaps further development on the CJ-500 (meant for ARJ-21) could be used on ARJ-21's successor.

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CJ-500 is derived from CJ-1000's core. economic ROI(return on investment) is the biggest reason why AECC didn't develop CJ-500 engine yet. its now upto COMAC. AECC could deliver engine in very short span of time.

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