COMAC C919 - China's first modern airliner

lcloo

lcloo

Captain
The way banks bought passenger aircraft and leased them to airliners is purely capitalist. The concept of Leasing and Hire Purchase/Mortgage Financing is never a part of Soviet/Communist economic philosophy.

Airline companies take up leasing from banks for accounting and taxation reasons.

The full amount of leasing payments can be written off as current year expenses instead of depreciation charges. And using leasing expenses airline company may get a larger deduction for taxation payments.

Then there is the cash flow. Any experienced business man knows that good cash flow is far more important than making profits, especially before his business is on track. Using leasing facilities from bank, airline companies do not have to put up a large initial payment acquiring a passenger jet. And better still, they will only start to pay the bank only after the aircraft is operational.

So it is wrong to say in this aspect that China is following the Soviets in regard to C919.
 
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LesAdieux

Junior Member
there're many obstacles for a new player, that's why most new comers didn't survive. the new comer need two things to survive: a big market and a deep pocket, China got both.

on the open ceremony, the CEO of COMAC told the reporters: " to develop large airliners is our nation's will（国家意志）"， it's not allowed to fail.
 
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LesAdieux

Junior Member
A380 super-jumbo: Soon to be a thing of the past?
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it cost the airbus a fortune to develop the A380, if in the end it chooses to terminate the plane, it will rank along with the Concorde as one of the greatest engineering feat and a big investment flop.

Boeing is also closing down its 747 production line, the B747 has been the cash cow for Boeing for many years.
 
tphuang

tphuang

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b787 said:
That is not true, the reason why Airbus and Boeing make more A-320 and B737 than B47s and A-380s is related to the Market, most people will fly shorter routes.

Learjet 85 was cancelled because the price per seat of this type of aircraft is high, it means a ERJ-145 will be sold in larger numbers than a Phenom, why? a Phenom is a smaller jet thus it means fewer people can afford to pay the price of operation of a Phenom than of a ERJ-145.

Bombardier can not compete with Airbus simply because they do not have the aerospace background Europe has.

Airbus is backed by well established companies that were making from Fokker 70s, Comets, and Caravelles, in few words they already have the market, experience and costumers for their jets.

Airbus was not a new company in terms of experience, the companies that merged were already making concord, Comets, Fokker 70s etc etc.

Bombardier did not start as an aircraft company, but it started making snowmobiles, so in order to gain customers they started with turboprop aircraft which require less fuel (jet engines consume more fuel) thus the price of each seat is lower than in a jet.

Embraer was the same, their first aircraft were turboprops, small ones.

To exemplify if you open a business you have to make profits, all business start small and if profits grow they become larger.

Embraer said they were not going to make a larger aircraft, because the market was over crowed, with the MRJ, MS-21, C919, C-series plus the A-320 and B-737, you have several countries trying to fill the same niche, some of these companies will fail.


Plus probably you do not know Embraer has connections with US and European aerospace industry that make parts for both Boeing and Airbus as well as for Embraer, so you do not know that basically the same companies that make money with a A-320 make money with a ERJ-145.

So Embraer will keep making E-170s because companies like Daher or Aernova or Goodrich or Honeywell make aircraft parts for Airbus, Boeing, Embraer or Bombardier, so in few words the reason why Russia and China and even Japan will have a hard time selling their jets is based upon the fact the western companies are themselves owned by the same people . and they share the spoils regardless they have offices in Sao Paulo, Otawa, Washington, London or Madrid,
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I don't think you understood my point at all.

Yes, everyone knows about suppliers that for all the major airliners.

A320 and B737 are the cash cows of Airbus and Boeing. They pull out all the stops to build up market share. It's very hard for these new entrants like C919, C-Series and MS-21 to get into this segment. So C-series has very few orders whereas C919 and MS-21 will have to start by getting orders mostly from domestic market. This is an early step for China in developing a successfully civil aviation industry. Not every country has a local market that it can rely on for orders. But over the long hull, it needs to be able to proof not only the aircraft itself but that they can reliably mass produce them and provide post sale service. These are the things that any new entrant need to learn. A good first step would be for COMAC to receive FAA certification and get some export orders. Even if it can get a few hundred export orders (+several hundred domestic ones) and FAA certification, I would think this project would be an overwhelming success. A320 production level is going over 60 per month. That is an amazing undertaking. There is a huge learning curve for comac in this first project.

A380 super-jumbo: Soon to be a thing of the past?
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it cost the airbus a fortune to develop the A380, if in the end it chooses to terminate the plane, it will rank along with the Concorde as one of the greatest engineering feat and a big investment flop.

Boeing is also closing down its 747 production line, the B747 has been the cash cow for Boeing for many years.
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Now, you've really done it. Got me going by talking about my favorite airliner. It's quite sad to me that A380 doesn't get more orders. off topic, but if you ever get a chance to fly A380 on emirates, you should take it. Work paid for a business class flight on Emirates A380 and it was quite the experience.
 
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LesAdieux

Junior Member
tphuang said:
Now, you've really done it. Got me going by talking about my favorite airliner. It's quite sad to me that A380 doesn't get more orders. off topic, but if you ever get a chance to fly A380 on emirates, you should take it. Work paid for a business class flight on Emirates A380 and it was quite the experience.
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I think the main problem is operators are losing money on it. China Southern purchased a few A380, they grounded them for quite a while, then put them on the Beijing-Guangzhou route, I heard China Southern like to sell those A380.
 
b787

b787

Captain
tphuang said:
I don't think you understood my point at all.

Yes, everyone knows about suppliers that for all the major airliners.

A320 and B737 are the cash cows of Airbus and Boeing. They pull out all the stops to build up market share. It's very hard for these new entrants like C919, C-Series and MS-21 to get into this segment. So C-series has very few orders whereas C919 and MS-21 will have to start by getting orders mostly from domestic market. .
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My point was the all sectors are hard, the difference is each company invest in aircraft depending in the risk and profits they think they can get.

Embraer can make larger aircraft, but contrary to China the risk is they are not relying on Brazil`s government to own airliners and buy them the E-190s. So for Embraer making a larger aircraft meant higher risks thus they just re-engined the E-190-E2 reducing R&D and adapting their jets quickly to the demands of their customers .

Bombardier is the same, enter into a larger segment meant risks in terms of profits and investment that Embraer deemed unnecessary to take.

Comac`s case is they have the money, they have the technology and the run state airliners can buy the C919 if they are asked, this is a great advantage they have.
 
b787

b787

Captain
lcloo said:
And better still, they will only start to pay the bank only after the aircraft is operational.

So it is wrong to say in this aspect that China is following the Soviets in regard to C919.
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They are following a Soviet style scheme, the Banks are state owned and run, same is the airliners, the System will work well if they are not corrupt, that is the risk they are running, Aeroflot had that trouble, so if the Chinese are smart they should allow competition run the business, i mean is good if they buy their own jet i do not see a disadvantage in that, but COMAC is state owned, the airliners are state owned and so are the banks, that has advantages if they really fight corruption and make a good product, and that can work if they do not force C919s but allow the competition have real chances and in that case they might have a chance in the export market where the Chinese government won`t be there to protect C919 from the competition.


 
lcloo

lcloo

Captain
I hate all these to and fro arguments and my advise is to get the facts rights before you write. Is there such thing as Stock Markets and public listed banks and airliners in Soviet era?

My last post any way, don't like all these to and fro, to and fro, to and fro to and fro argument. May be you like this, but not me. You know what they called this in Singapore? Kiasu is the word.
 
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B

B.I.B.

Captain
lcloo said:
I hate all these to and fro arguments and my advise is to get the facts rights before you write. Is there such thing as Stock Markets and public listed banks and airliners in Soviet era?

My last post any way, don't like all these to and fro, to and fro, to and fro to and fro argument. May be you like this, but not me. You know what they called this in Singapore? Kiasu is the word.
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Don't know about you,but I have learnt a lot.
Anyway isn't this what the forums about.....exchanging information and viewpoints?
 
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