COMAC C919 - China's first modern airliner

Brumby

Major
C919 is not different, the Question is and always has been how independent COMAC can be, in my opinion, the C919 has few advantages and weaknesses as a program, they have sold 500 aircraft, that is really good, the problem is they sold the aircraft mostly to themselves, i do not think China`s aerospace industry will implode, but i think its major Challenge will be sold 100% made Chinese jets, i do not think it will happen, since all airliners have a lot of political strings attached.

What i am trying to tell you is if in Europe they buy Boeing they are buying European made aircraft parts, and vice versa, the Americans buy american made aircraft parts in Airbus aircraft.

Many countries buy aircraft based upon political alliaces, C919 is a political example, it is only mainly bought by Chinese government owned companies, basically the Chinese are following a Soviet Style model

I think you are jumping too far ahead of the curve on this subject. The Chinese domestic aviation market offers significant potential (due to size) and what has happened with the C919 is a logical first step to secure a slice of the pie for itself with a product offering and market segment positioning that optimises commercial viability. That is the immediate objective and given the size and market potential will take some time to just digest that segment. I am sure there will be product line extensions in the future to meet the requirements of the other segments. Competing internationally is really pre mature at this stage given where things are currently. It needs to establish a track record on reliability, safety and product support. That can only come with time.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
i do not think China`s aerospace industry will implode, but i think its major Challenge will be sold 100% made Chinese jets, i do not think it will happen, since all airliners have a lot of political strings attached.

What i am trying to tell you is if in Europe they buy Boeing they are buying European made aircraft parts, and vice versa, the Americans buy american made aircraft parts in Airbus aircraft.

Many countries buy aircraft based upon political alliaces, C919 is a political example, it is only mainly bought by Chinese government owned companies, basically the Chinese are following a Soviet Style model

I believe it will be China's policy to push for 100% locally made until the foreign market pushes back. Then COMAC will have no choice but to bend with the market forces.

As for purchase based on political alliances, the sentiment determines the zeitgeist. China and the West are not having a Cold War unlike the Soviet Union, although Japan is unlikely to be in the market for China made airliners. OTH, the economy is more globalized and you can see China buying utility companies in the West. That is the trend. The market of the industrialized nations will be harder to crack unless they need the financing that China can offer.
 

Brumby

Major
I believe it will be China's policy to push for 100% locally made until the foreign market pushes back. Then COMAC will have no choice but to bend with the market forces.
I don't understand the business rationale for COMAC aiming for 100 % local sourcing within its supply chain. I do believe it will be counter productive to building competitiveness in the long run especially if it aims to compete in the international market place. A core principle underlying a free and efficient market is the inherent outcome of competition and that itself drives competitiveness and efficiencies. Restricting and limiting sources within your supply chain will likely generate inefficiencies rather than efficiencies.
 

cn_habs

Junior Member
Airbus and Boeing are only two names, the reality is far far more complex, Airbus and Boeing are not different from Embraer, they are international companies, these aircraft in many ways are made by companies in both sides of the Atlantic.

To put you an example, Aernova is a Spanish company it builds parts for different aerospace clients ranging from Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer etc etc, Honeywell for example designs and build parts for both Airbus and Boeing.

Airbus and Boeing are only assemblers of the parts, they do not make everything by themselves, same are jet engines, to give you and example, ITP is a Spanish company that designs and builds the turbine fans for Rolls Royce jet engines, they design and build those parts in several countries ranging from Spain to India or Mexico.

C919 is not different, the Question is and always has been how independent COMAC can be, in my opinion, the C919 has few advantages and weaknesses as a program, they have sold 500 aircraft, that is really good, the problem is they sold the aircraft mostly to themselves, i do not think China`s aerospace industry will implode, but i think its major Challenge will be sold 100% made Chinese jets, i do not think it will happen, since all airliners have a lot of political strings attached.

What i am trying to tell you is if in Europe they buy Boeing they are buying European made aircraft parts, and vice versa, the Americans buy american made aircraft parts in Airbus aircraft.

Many countries buy aircraft based upon political alliaces, C919 is a political example, it is only mainly bought by Chinese government owned companies, basically the Chinese are following a Soviet Style model

You do realize the West won't help its direct competitors even though the plane could just as compliant and secure as its Western counterparts.

Also keep in mind that Rome wasn't built in one day. Chengdu didn't go straight from J-20 to J-10.
 

weig2000

Captain
Airbus and Boeing are only two names, the reality is far far more complex, Airbus and Boeing are not different from Embraer, they are international companies, these aircraft in many ways are made by companies in both sides of the Atlantic.

To put you an example, Aernova is a Spanish company it builds parts for different aerospace clients ranging from Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer etc etc, Honeywell for example designs and build parts for both Airbus and Boeing.

Airbus and Boeing are only assemblers of the parts, they do not make everything by themselves, same are jet engines, to give you and example, ITP is a Spanish company that designs and builds the turbine fans for Rolls Royce jet engines, they design and build those parts in several countries ranging from Spain to India or Mexico.

C919 is not different, the Question is and always has been how independent COMAC can be, in my opinion, the C919 has few advantages and weaknesses as a program, they have sold 500 aircraft, that is really good, the problem is they sold the aircraft mostly to themselves, i do not think China`s aerospace industry will implode, but i think its major Challenge will be sold 100% made Chinese jets, i do not think it will happen, since all airliners have a lot of political strings attached.

What i am trying to tell you is if in Europe they buy Boeing they are buying European made aircraft parts, and vice versa, the Americans buy american made aircraft parts in Airbus aircraft.

Many countries buy aircraft based upon political alliaces, C919 is a political example, it is only mainly bought by Chinese government owned companies, basically the Chinese are following a Soviet Style model

I think your post basically answers your question.

C919 as is currently configured sources a majority of its major subsystems/components internationally. This is due both to necessity and China's realization and decision to follow the international best practice in the civil aircraft industry.

When the Chinese government decided to fund the so-called "big aircraft" programs as one of the 16 key national technology programs back in 2006 after several years of discussion and deliberations, they specifically split the military part (Y-20) and the commercial aircraft into two separate projects; the former was given to Xi'an Aircraft Corporation, the latter to COMAC which was founded as a brand new company for the project. COMAC was headquartered purposely in Shanghai because it is a international city and it would be easier for recruiting talents, sales and marketing, service and training. C919 would not be considered to be successful unless it survives and succeeds in the commercial market, perhaps first domestically, but eventually internationally.

COMAC will continue to source internationally for C919 and C929 in the future, but it is also helping to build a viable and competitive domestic supply network because, it wants to be independent and in driver's seat and would like to cultivate some competition among its supplier base, just like Boeing and AirBus do. In fact, many of the foreign suppliers for C919 were asked to set up joint ventures with Chinese partners in China.

China/COMMAC will eventually push to sell C919 (and C929 in the future) internationally, obviously; it would not close its market to Boeing and AirBus. It just wants to be as successful as Boeing and AirBus in the commercial aircraft space, in another word, to become the 'C' in a world of 'ABC' compared against the 'AB' currently.
 

b787

Captain
You do realize the West won't help its direct competitors even though the plane could just as compliant and secure as its Western counterparts.

Also keep in mind that Rome wasn't built in one day. Chengdu didn't go straight from J-20 to J-10.
they already did help Comac, by supplying all the subsystems such as avionics or engine.
iJXvObp.gif


According to CNN, though the C919 is tagged as a home-made plane, many of the components for the plane were made in the U.S., France and Germany. For example, the electrical system and landing gears were produced in the U.S. by Honeywell International Inc. (
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-
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) and the engines by the U.S.-French joint venture CFM Internationa - See more at:
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
a couple of points.
1) McDonnell douglas Could not keep in the Market. When Airbus introed the A310 the MD line was living on borrowed time there last great bird the MD 11 nailed the coffin. and by 1992 the company was more or less done for In 1997 it was merged into Boeing.

2) The C919 is very much a international Bird. Although the integration and hull is Chinese made most of the Systems are imported or manufactured by Foreign owned suppliers.

3) on the subject of the 500 orders I have see listed almost all are PRC based firms. so having a local base makes since all but what three token orders are routed from the PRC.
(Now before any one jumps at me, I will say I do belive this will have a export future but I think it will be routed more in Emerging markets like Africa where we see a heavy Chinese Infrastructure investment. )

Boeing has deep roots and established supply chains. as does Airbus They also have established relations with the Airlines and safety records.
Comac Is basically a totally new player as such.
I mean It's like Tesla motors, they can't compete Dealership wise with the big names like Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota and the like so they have to find another way. If you can't build a Dealership then use a different model.
So Comac attacked it's target market directly by using the close relations of Chinese owned firms to get orders and put it's proverbial foot in the door. Now it's all up to if it can live up to the hype.
 

broadsword

Brigadier
I don't understand the business rationale for COMAC aiming for 100 % local sourcing within its supply chain. I do believe it will be counter productive to building competitiveness in the long run especially if it aims to compete in the international market place. A core principle underlying a free and efficient market is the inherent outcome of competition and that itself drives competitiveness and efficiencies. Restricting and limiting sources within your supply chain will likely generate inefficiencies rather than efficiencies.

You are right from the entrepreneur's point of view. If you follow China's technological developments, it has been striving for self-sufficiency in all fields, because with that comes lower cost and ownership of copyrights and also security. It will have the option of not using local components according to the customers' demands.
 

b787

Captain
I think your post basically answers your question.

C919 as is currently configured sources a majority of its major subsystems/components internationally. This is due both to necessity and China's realization and decision to follow the international best practice in the civil aircraft industry.

When the Chinese government decided to fund the so-called "big aircraft" programs as one of the 16 key national technology programs back in 2006 after several years of discussion and deliberations, they specifically split the military part (Y-20) and the commercial aircraft into two separate projects; the former was given to Xi'an Aircraft Corporation, the latter to COMAC which was founded as a brand new company for the project. COMAC was headquartered purposely in Shanghai because it is a international city and it would be easier for recruiting talents, sales and marketing, service and training. C919 would not be considered to be successful unless it survives and succeeds in the commercial market, perhaps first domestically, but eventually internationally.

COMAC will continue to source internationally for C919 and C929 in the future, but it is also helping to build a viable and competitive domestic supply network because, it wants to be independent and in driver's seat and would like to cultivate some competition among its supplier base, just like Boeing and AirBus do. In fact, many of the foreign suppliers for C919 were asked to set up joint ventures with Chinese partners in China.

China/COMMAC will eventually push to sell C919 (and C929 in the future) internationally, obviously; it would not close its market to Boeing and AirBus. It just wants to be as successful as Boeing and AirBus in the commercial aircraft space, in another word, to become the 'C' in a world of 'ABC' compared against the 'AB' currently.
They will succeed, civil aircraft are not military stuff, despite they can also be customized for such things.

However it is not like it is going to be Comac, Boeing or AIrbus. the aerospace arena is far far more complicated because an aircraft maker like Boeing is just an assembler and only does some aerodynamic and structural design, today aircraft are made of different parts made by different companies. the Japanese buy for example Boeing aircraft because the B-777 and B-787 have parts made in Japan.

The Russians also want to sell the SSJ and MS-21 but they are like the C919 only domestically bought aircraft because western Europe and the US buy aircraft that help their domestic industries, just to put you an example Embraer and Bombardier are sold in the USA and EU but Embraer has factories in the US and Portugal and uses a lot of american made and European made aircraft parts.

The C919 has maybe a market in some Asian and African countries neutral and even Latin America, but already Brazil and Mexico have industries that are defendant upon the West so i only see nations like Cuba or Venezuela buying C-919s.

the Russian block might buy COMAC jets if they also have Russian made parts, but to compete with Airbus, Embraer, Boeing and Bombardier requires share the pie and in many ways will require COMAC to use western subsystems or follow a Soviet style policy which proved to be wrong in the case of Russia
 
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weig2000

Captain
The Comac has in the largest civil configuration about what 174 passengers making it roughly equal to the Boeing 737-400 or the 737-800 which maxes out at 188-189 passengers the two are very much comparable. So It's likely that in military roles we can use the 737 to make a guesses.

A common use of the 737 is as a freighter and transport of troops and cargo that are not directly needed onto the battlefield. This also seems likely for the Comac especially since it's likely to be developed as such for commercial use. basically in this role the aircraft is virtually stock, other than military coms systems it might as well be flying for a Airline.
In this same category we can also place potential VIP configurations. not just for the PLA but also for the CCP and potentially export to nations that might want a flying palace for there leader but can't get Airbus or Boeing. (I suspect Kim Jong Un wants one.)

Well in the mode of flying generals the PLA Uses a Airborne Command post version of the 737-300 ( Tail # B-4052) It seems likely to me that with their Expansion over the last decades, They may move to use the 919 as a successor platform with more modern technologies in the Comac hull.

The 737 is the basis for the Wedgetail AEW used by Australia, Turkey and South Korea. So again comparable the question is Balance beam or flying disk. As we know the PLAAF have used both configurations of radar.
The 737 is also the basis of the P-8 Poseidon and this is a potential fo the 919 hull as well however it would require more extensive modification. Poseidon has the potential to fill three roles for the USN that of a Maritime sub hunter, a Electronic warfare and intercept intelligence aircraft and a JSTARS type platform again in the comac we find potential for all three.

Currently there is no Tanker version of the 737, I suspect the same to be true of the 919 due to size constraints. If Comac however did move forward with the 929 concept that might prove a platform for such.
In the end it comes down to doctrine and the PLA's wants. since this is a new bird don't expect any of this till maybe the mid 2020's

Another way to look at it, C919 is in the same weight class of Y-8/Y-9. So most of the current PLAAF/PLANA GX series aircraft can be replaced with a C919 based version, e.g. Y-500, GX-6 ASW.
 
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