COMAC C919 - China's first modern airliner

Schumacher

Senior Member
they already did help Comac, by supplying all the subsystems such as avionics or engine
The only ones they 'help' are themselves. These guys run business, not charity.
Most of the subsystems manufacturers, including the Leap1C, are required to set up joint ventures and factories in China. So when C919 goes into production, these avionics and engines will come from factories in China and profits shared with Chinese partners.
Why do they agree to this one might ask. Money of course. If they don't agree, China will go alone, get back at western firms thru sanctions in other areas and get C919 ready anyway a few more years late.
What do these subsystems manufacturers get then ? Gloats about C919 being late ? But that's not as good as money in the banks had they cooperated from the start, isn't it ? :)
 

Franklin

Captain
That's not going to happen with all those foreign (American) made components on that plane. It will be the Y-20 that's going to be used for special mission purposes.

I wonder why the US uses converted passenger planes for their special purpose planes and not their strategic airlift like the C-17 Globemaster III. I think China will follow the Russian route and use their strategic airlift for their special purpose planes like tankers and AWAC's.
 

lcloo

Captain
Converting a passenger jet for special purpose instead of a military transport has advantages.

First is that passengers jets are very quiet compare with military transport jets. This is very important for the operators handling the sensor consoles.

Then there is the pressurised cabins. Transport jets need extensive modification to fully pressurise the whole aircraft by sealing off the ramp and add new pressure bulkhead at the tail section. This is for the comfort of console operators who need to work long hours, to ensure they are alert and prevent fatigue.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
That's not going to happen with all those foreign (American) made components on that plane. It will be the Y-20 that's going to be used for special mission purposes.

I wonder why the US uses converted passenger planes for their special purpose planes and not their strategic airlift like the C-17 Globemaster III. I think China will follow the Russian route and use their strategic airlift for their special purpose planes like tankers and AWAC's.
First Franklin when the US built the E3, The C17 did not exist yet. C17 is actually a very new bird it's first flights date to the early 1990's Where E3 dates to the 1970's.
But this next part is the bing point.
The Main reason why the Us chose to Integrate using Commercial airliner hulls was Availability of parts and hulls. The Same was the Reason the Russians went with IL76 based platforms.
The strategic lifter of the Time E3 was designed was the C141 but Only 280 or so of those were built and they were needed for strategic lift so pulling Those hulls for AEW roles would have been a waste. by contrast Boeing 707 Were Plentiful a little over a thousand were built, Spare Parts could be easily gotten from any Airline and the USAF had been using them as C135s since the 1950's And in the 1960s the USAF had successfully used them for the basis of the KC135 and by 1958 for Air force one duties.
farther if you track back before that the Predecessor to the E3 was based on the Lockheed Super constellation a Turboprop Commercial liner.
On the Other side of the Iron Curtin
Interestingly the Russian AEW program began with trials on a modified Tu95 bomber, but then moved to TU116 a Prototype Airliner and then settled on the TU114 Airliner Based on the Tu95 bomber.
There Production AEW was the Tu126 based on the TU114 Airliner.
It was not until the 1970's that the Russians moved to the IL76 hull for there A50.
However over 40 A50's were built and over 960 Il76 were built making for a plentiful supply chain,
Additionally Where Boeing 707's were widely available Russian civilian Airliners were small batch production. the Russian equivalent to the 707, the IL62 had less than 300 built. even into the late 80's when the Russians really built larger airliners the numbers were in the double digits so they never really had a major Airliner of the class to convert, but they had plentiful Strategic lifters.

Look around at other nations who have since built AEW and special mission birds other then the E2 Which has the special needs of carrier operations. Japan ordered There E767 because they wanted E3 but there were no spare 707 hulls on hand so they went with a airline Boeing had on hand. India used IL76 because they could get the hulls easily and could work the conversion quickly based on the A50, but there follow on is based on the ERJ145 buisness Jet. Australia, south Korea and Turkey used the 737 for there E7, The Swedish designed the S 100B Argus based on a Saab 340 passenger turboprop Pakistan was eyeing the stretched version of the Saab 340 the Saab 2000 with a Erieye radar system and Embrar is selling more ERJ145s with Radars as the E99
Why? Plentiful hulls spare parts and ease of procurement.
Furthermore the PLA has been working on use of smaller Special mission aircraft, yes they have 5 KJ2000 and a unknown number of KJ3000 but they also have the smaller AEW platforms in testing based on Y8 and Y9 Aircraft.
Then start factoring in.
Converting a passenger jet for special purpose instead of a military transport has advantages.

First is that passengers jets are very quiet compare with military transport jets. This is very important for the operators handling the sensor consoles.

Then there is the pressurised cabins. Transport jets need extensive modification to fully pressurise the whole aircraft by sealing off the ramp and add new pressure bulkhead at the tail section. This is for the comfort of console operators who need to work long hours, to ensure they are alert and prevent fatigue.
Now For the C919 vs Y20, How many are to be built? Comac has a solid 500+ units on order Y20? estimates vary there was a report that the
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's Center for Economic Research recommended 400 units which by the Way would out number the number of C17 built well others call for a more conservative 50-100 units and some are not even sure Y20 is actually any where near production ready as it seems to be missing some features found on others in it's class like Blown Flaps and Winglets, but either way The C919 would be more plentiful.
As to Foreign parts The PLA already uses the B737 in a military role with no issue, and having such a large pool of spare parts already on hand in need to maintain the 500 C919s means there should be little issue in finding spares. additionally any tech in sensitive areas would likely be replaced with Indigenous Tech.

So in the end Franklin there is only one Factor I feel your argument has in it's favor.
"like tankers" C919 is roughly equal to the AB310 If you're Tanking Jets it's kinda on the Small side, The KC 135 is bigger than the Comac in wingspan and length and can carry a larger fuel load it can carry about 200,000 lb of Fuel . The IL78 can pack in 220,462 lbs of fuel. The A310MRTT packs in just short of 62,000 lb of fuel which is not that impressive I mean a KC130J can pack 45,000 lb of Fuel. So Yeah I just cant see a KC919. better to wait for Y20 or C929 or just keep Il78.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Airbus and Boeing are only two names, the reality is far far more complex, Airbus and Boeing are not different from Embraer, they are international companies, these aircraft in many ways are made by companies in both sides of the Atlantic.

To put you an example, Aernova is a Spanish company it builds parts for different aerospace clients ranging from Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer etc etc, Honeywell for example designs and build parts for both Airbus and Boeing.

Airbus and Boeing are only assemblers of the parts, they do not make everything by themselves, same are jet engines, to give you and example, ITP is a Spanish company that designs and builds the turbine fans for Rolls Royce jet engines, they design and build those parts in several countries ranging from Spain to India or Mexico.

C919 is not different, the Question is and always has been how independent COMAC can be, in my opinion, the C919 has few advantages and weaknesses as a program, they have sold 500 aircraft, that is really good, the problem is they sold the aircraft mostly to themselves, i do not think China`s aerospace industry will implode, but i think its major Challenge will be sold 100% made Chinese jets, i do not think it will happen, since all airliners have a lot of political strings attached.

What i am trying to tell you is if in Europe they buy Boeing they are buying European made aircraft parts, and vice versa, the Americans buy american made aircraft parts in Airbus aircraft.

Many countries buy aircraft based upon political alliaces, C919 is a political example, it is only mainly bought by Chinese government owned companies, basically the Chinese are following a Soviet Style model
I don't see your statements contradict mine really.
1. C919 have many subcontractors from US and Europe. That is same as Boeing and Airbus. They are platform designers and integrators.
Boeing and Airbus also contract China to build parts, as far as I know, fuselage sections, doors, control planes. This has been going on for decades.
So the three buy from each others' part of the world. This does not put COMAC at any advantage or disadvantage.
2. Regarding COMAC only get domestic orders. COMAC has got 20 orders from
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(US) and 10 from
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(Thailand). I don't know if Airbus had get orders from US before its first aircraft got FAA certified. That is where COMAC is (before any FAA certification).
3. The last thing, politics, it has a big role, but COMAC is totally different from Soviet Style. It has lots of western suppliers just like Boeing and Airbus (in my point 1). It has get 30 orders from abroad including US (my point 2).

My feeling is that you are arguing against me (no offence) but none of your evidence contradicts my points. Maybe it is because you don't know the facts that COMAC has involved western subcontractors and itself has been a subcontractor to Boeing and Airbus for decades???
 

weig2000

Captain
So in the end Franklin there is only one Factor I feel your argument has in it's favor.
"like tankers" C919 is roughly equal to the AB310 If you're Tanking Jets it's kinda on the Small side, The KC 135 is bigger than the Comac in wingspan and length and can carry a larger fuel load it can carry about 200,000 lb of Fuel . The IL78 can pack in 220,462 lbs of fuel. The A310MRTT packs in just short of 62,000 lb of fuel which is not that impressive I mean a KC130J can pack 45,000 lb of Fuel. So Yeah I just cant see a KC919. better to wait for Y20 or C929 or just keep Il78.

C919 is not a good platform for tanker and large AWACS aircraft. Agreed it would be better to wait for Y-20 or C929. The latter is better, but it would be a longer wait.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
As Deino Pointed out the PLA has the Balance beam radar system used on the KJ200 there is also the KJ500 with a traditional rotating dome.
The Shaanxi Y8 is comparable in Scale as the C919 so In theory a Streamlined version of any of the Radar systems seen on the Y8 may be capable of being fit into the hull.


Oh and before I forget, In the last decade Russia produced the Tu-214R a Special mission Aircraft based on the Tu204 Airliner.
 
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b787

Captain
The only ones they 'help' are themselves. These guys run business, not charity.
Most of the subsystems manufacturers, including the Leap1C, are required to set up joint ventures and factories in China. So when C919 goes into production, these avionics and engines will come from factories in China and profits shared with Chinese partners.
Why do they agree to this one might ask. Money of course. If they don't agree, China will go alone, get back at western firms thru sanctions in other areas and get C919 ready anyway a few more years late.
What do these subsystems manufacturers get then ? Gloats about C919 being late ? But that's not as good as money in the banks had they cooperated from the start, isn't it ? :)
you really do not make sense, business are business, business in the civil aircraft have been conducted in a civilized way between China and the West.
 

b787

Captain
I don't see your statements contradict mine really.
1. C919 have many subcontractors from US and Europe. That is same as Boeing and Airbus. They are platform designers and integrators.
Boeing and Airbus also contract China to build parts, as far as I know, fuselage sections, doors, control planes. This has been going on for decades.
So the three buy from each others' part of the world. This does not put COMAC at any advantage or disadvantage.
2. Regarding COMAC only get domestic orders. COMAC has got 20 orders from
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(US) and 10 from
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(Thailand). I don't know if Airbus had get orders from US before its first aircraft got FAA certified. That is where COMAC is (before any FAA certification).
3. The last thing, politics, it has a big role, but COMAC is totally different from Soviet Style. It has lots of western suppliers just like Boeing and Airbus (in my point 1). It has get 30 orders from abroad including US (my point 2).

My feeling is that you are arguing against me (no offence) but none of your evidence contradicts my points. Maybe it is because you don't know the facts that COMAC has involved western subcontractors and itself has been a subcontractor to Boeing and Airbus for decades???
Sorry you are just dodging the issue, Embraer for example built the ERj-145 mostly for foreign airliners, in fact the EMB-130 and EMB-120 were mostly export aircraft.

The C919 is built under a soviet style philosophy because it is not really competing in the export Market, the Soviet airliners once they were open to export under international and western rules were not able to compete, Embraer was different, once they stop building under the domestic market philosophy, they succeed.

Now i am not saying that that is a weakness completely, the Chinese are trying to secure an internal number to protect their aviation industry, however from the point of view of success the C919 has not achieved at any moment the needed none Chinese and private ownership a true successful program needs like B-737 or A-320 have achieved by being exported in none local markets.

Of course i am not saying it will not succeed, perhaps the aircraft will be later exported and get the level ERJ-145 got for Embraer, but if you notice most of the buyers of C919 are Chinese banks, which are highly vulnerable to losses in their investment in the aircraft itself and the airliners they control, because basically they are buying their own aircraft
 

broadsword

Brigadier
The ERJ-145 seats 50 while the C919 seats 168. Different market segment and customers. Airbus and Boeing do not make 50 seaters. You should compare the ERJ-145 with the MA-600.

however from the point of view of success the C919 has not achieved at any moment the needed none Chinese and private ownership a true successful program needs like B-737 or A-320 have achieved by being exported in none local markets.

The first plane was just launched and has not even begun testing, and so it is too early to discount its international success. And keep in mind COMAC is new in the business of manufacturing passenger airliners.

It will take it a while longer to win foreign trust in their 168 seat jet than in Embraer's 50 seaters. And of course, the C919 is made to compete in the world market. Just don't expect it to win a proportionate share of the world market. Even if it does not, it still has the domestic market to cushion on.
 
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