Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Grupo2 said:

Very good summary thanks. I think this is an example of a small scale order that might be getting outside attention in Beijing this would be a significant contract for a country that's traditionally buys Western aircraft and the information I have is that it remains a very solid contender so we will see.

As for the JL-9 - if I'm not mistaken the back end of that aircraft is essentially a late j7 so a fairly tried and tested aircraft that they have added quite a bit of modern avionics and systems to, if I was negotiating for the Uruguayan government I would be asking about a small batch of JL-9s and an additional batch of low time refurbished J-7G's and just see what kind of offer they could come up with

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Yes, trainers just don't get as much of the spotlight as fighters do, even if they are for light attack and fighter roles. There weren't even any trainers present at the recent 100th Anniversary of the CCP, perhaps we will learn more at this years Zhuhai Air Show.

The only export sale of the L-15 as mentioned before, was to Zambia, at $100 million dollars for 6 non-afterburning AI-222-25 aircraft, with training simulators and weapons. This will likely be a similar price for Uruguay who also would be starting from scratch when it comes to existing training material and Chinese weapon systems. As I mentioned earlier as well there are rumours of a planned follow up order from back in 2017 for 12 more L-15Bs but no photos or information on any progress have come out about those in years so I would be ready to just dismiss them at this point. The big issue for what is taking so long could also be the engines.

The L-15 still relies completely on imports from the Ukraine for small turbofan engines. Just earlier this year, China spent $800 million USD to purchase 400 AI-322 non-afterburning turbofan engines from Motor Sich in the Ukraine (The AI-322 is a slightly more specialized variant of the AI-222-25, specifically for the L-15). China did NOT buy any AI-322F engines though, and those are the afterburning variant of the engine that would allow the L-15 to reach supersonic speeds. All of this comes on top of the continued failure of the WS-17 Minshan project, wish has not shown any signs of progress since it was revealed all the way back in 2012. The biggest example of the WS-17's failure is that the Guizhou Soar Dragon WZ-7 high altitude drone was initially going to have the WS-17 but in the end the production model is instead equipped with the ancient WP-13 (a license built Tumansky R-13 turbojet). Since Uruguay is specifically looking for a supersonic aircraft, this could be the source of at least some of the problems.

As for the JL-9, I'm not sure why it's not being offered since it seems to check off more of the boxes Uruguay needs than the L-15A, but as mentioned earlier, it really is just a very, very modern J-7 and like the J-7, relies on an old-fashioned WP-13 turbojet and old Cold War era mechanical flight control systems and this could be why it is not being offered for export. I have never heard of China selling former PLAAF aircraft to another country, all Chinese export aircraft have always been built solely for export, I don't think selling off retired former PLAAF aircraft is something China really does.

That point about the Guizhou Soar Dragon using the same engine seems far fetched. The R-13 has over 50% more thrust than the Al-222.
In terms of dimensions the R-13 is closer to the RD-33 engine. So if it was to use anything else it would be the WS-13 or WS-19.

Like I said before, Russia's Salyut can manufacture the Al-222 engine. They are in the process of making a digital version of the engine so they can easily test it via software simulation and make changes to the design. There is also some evidence China might have gotten the data on it from Ukraine to manufacture it themselves.

Russia also had a lot of issues with Ukraine never delivering the afterburning version of the Al-222 to them either. Makes me think the whole thing might just be a myth.

gelgoog said:

That point about the Guizhou Soar Dragon using the same engine seems far fetched. The R-13 has over 50% more thrust than the Al-222.
In terms of dimensions the R-13 is closer to the RD-33 engine. So if it was to use anything else it would be the WS-13 or WS-19.

Like I said before, Russia's Salyut can manufacture the Al-222 engine. They are in the process of making a digital version of the engine so they can easily test it via software simulation and make changes to the design. There is also some evidence China might have gotten the data on it from Ukraine to manufacture it themselves.

Russia also had a lot of issues with Ukraine never delivering the afterburning version of the Al-222 to them either. Makes me think the whole thing might just be a myth.

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On the Soar Dragon, I admit I don't follow UAVs as much, the claim about the WS-17 Minshan's application on it came primarily from here:


The purchase of 400 AI-322s (and the ongoing troubles with the Madasic engine company, which was almost bought out by Chinese investors in December last year but was vetoed by the Ukrainian government) in January 2021 has been widely published about. While Russia is developing their own AI-222 after their political breakdown with the Ukrainian government in 2014, the AI-322 engines being purchased from the Ukraine apparently are the full FADEC control variant unlike the older AI-222s, but like the AI-222s are non-afterburning.




(The English in these links aren't great so I assume they're just machine translated from Ukrainian)

As for technology transfers from Ukraine, we can assume that is going towards the WS-17 Minshan, and while I admit I was a little harsh earlier, it still is an ongoing project after all, there hasn't been much new information on it since 2012 when it was announced. So there isn't much to talk about other than we know it's still being worked on and that the attempted purchase of Madasic may be related.

On the last point, I think you are right. The origins of the afterburning AI-222-25F variant being used for the L-15 are from the 2016 Zhuhai Air Show and there has not been any news pr evidence since. It's all well and good to have a static display of an afterburning engine at air shows and pictures on your company website that it exists, yet not a single after-burning engine has been exported to China yet, even in the face of a complete financial crisis in the Ukrainian aviation industry. I don't think I've ever seen any aircraft with afterburning AI-222-25F flying yet after all these years still. It may all just be marketing smoke and mirrors to hide that their afterburning engine isn't ready yet.

I haven't had much luck on finding specs for the PC-2AI cannon pod that the Zambian L-15's carry - 23mm yes, but capacity, effective range, ammunition capacity?

I do hope we see more of the JL-10. There is quite a huge market for LIFT aircraft especially the emerging african economies. Besides, it just looks unique

The JL-9 looks like an outdated platform aesthetically

@Deino, a very very very rare image of JL-10's gun pod being fired.

I just saw this pic from the Zambian Air Force website - does this show their L-15'S do not have a radar?

Grupo2 said:

I just saw this pic from the Zambian Air Force website - does this show their L-15'S do not have a radar?
View attachment 74504

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Correction - the stenciling indicates a radar but is it a fire control radar?

Could be SY-80 with scanner removed for servicing? Comparison with pic below of JL-10 with radar seems to show this could be the case?

Grupo2 said:

Could be SY-80 with scanner removed for servicing? Comparison with pic below of JL-10 with radar seems to show this could be the case?
View attachment 74514

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That's a small radar, the pesa look way more interesting.