Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Julio Ramos · Jun 30, 2021

Grupo2 said:
L-15 for Uruguay:

I've been searching for any references to this possible sale on this forum and haven't found much. A member of The forum mentioned in 2020 that Uruguay operated Chinese transport aircraft this is incorrect - Uruguay operates a mixed fleet of CASA Aviocars and C-130 tactical transports.

The possibility of L-15s to replace the A-37 light strike aircraft is very much alive and well.

Relations with China are good more than half of the covid vaccination effort has been with sinovac vaccine, commercial relations remain strong and the Uruguayan president is planning a visit to China later this year. There has been lots of speculation on Military forum in Uruguay about whether that would be the occasion for announcing purchase of L-15.

The Uruguayan Air force is looking to enhance the capabilities of its combat squadron by replacing the dragonflies with a supersonic aircraft equipped with a multi-mode radar the reason for this is that the aircraft is required to operate as an interceptor against elicit drug carrying aircraft Crossing Uruguayan airspace from Brazil and Argentina.

The L-15 remains very much a contender however exactly what radar could be fitted to an export L-15 remains unclear as far as I can tell and it is a non-negotiable requirement of the Uruguayan Air force.

I'd be interested in hearing any thoughts for members may have on this. The selection of the new combat aircraft was slowed down by the pandemic but is very much ongoing I would expect a decision to be made later this year when the pandemic situation in Uruguay improves further.

Uruguayan here.
I took my second dose of Sinovac a couple of weeks ago.

Air Force bought a couple of old Spanish C-130 and some people just turned crazy.
Armed forces aren't beloved here.

But we really need something better than the dragonflies to intercept drug smuggling.

Philister · Jun 30, 2021

hmkdf said:
But why did they use the WP-14 for J-8 but not for J-7. Or asked in a different way: why the found the WP-13 to be sufficent for latest J-7 versions including JL-9 but not for the J-8?

Cuz WP-14 is a failure ,did fine in the testing facility(they didn’t do much test though),turned out to be a shit sandwich after entering the service,and they went back to WP-13 in the end

Grupo2 · Jun 30, 2021

Julio Ramos said:
Uruguayan here.
I took my second dose of Sinovac a couple of weeks ago.

Air Force bought a couple of old Spanish C-130 and some people just turned crazy.
Armed forces aren't beloved here.

But we really need something better than the dragonflies to intercept drug smuggling.

Expat Uruguayan here, yes Julio you are right, military spending not too popular in Uruguay but I see no change in the stated government policy to buy new combat aircraft and this was reiterated recently in an interview with the Commander of the FAU and the minister of defence....of course anything is possible in politics.

For the discussion here the main takeaway is that L-15 is still a contender but what is not clear is what Hongdu is able to offer. The FAU requirements are supersonic performance (so likely an afterburner engine) and a radar. The integration of a radar (perhaps SY-80 or something more advanced) on a ready-for-production aircraft is not certain from what I have read, unless someone can confirm otherwise?

I know there have been photos of L-15 with nose cones that appear to house a radar but I have not seen any confirmation of such a radar being integrated into the aircraft ready for production

Semi-Lobster · Jun 30, 2021

Grupo2 said:
Expat Uruguayan here, yes Julio you are right, military spending not too popular in Uruguay but I see no change in the stated government policy to buy new combat aircraft and this was reiterated recently in an interview with the Commander of the FAU and the minister of defence....of course anything is possible in politics.

For the discussion here the main takeaway is that L-15 is still a contender but what is not clear is what Hongdu is able to offer. The FAU requirements are supersonic performance (so likely an afterburner engine) and a radar. The integration of a radar (perhaps SY-80 or something more advanced) on a ready-for-production aircraft is not certain from what I have read, unless someone can confirm otherwise?

I know there have been photos of L-15 with nose cones that appear to house a radar but I have not seen any confirmation of such a radar being integrated into the aircraft ready for production

There are photos of an alleged small PESA radar installed on the L-15 allegedly developed by the 607 Institute with a range of about 75 km posted by Huitong but there is so little information on this radar its hard to corroborate more details.

This is in addition to the option of the old SY-80 radar equipped to the non-afterburning Zambian L-15Z (there are some articles speaking of a second batch planned for Zambia WITH afterburners but that's much more difficult to confirm).

Another Chinese option is of course is the JL-9G which can come equipped with the JL-10GJ X-band PD fire-control radar (also 30 km range) and there are sources stating that a more robust PD radar has been developed for the JL-9G that is compatible with the export oriented SD-10A medium range missile (also mentioned by Huitong).

SteelBird · Jun 30, 2021

In today's aerial warfare, does 30km range mean anything?

Semi-Lobster · Jul 1, 2021

SteelBird said:
In today's aerial warfare, does 30km range mean anything?

It's basically the definition of 'Within visual range', short range missiles lack the long range, potential first strike capabilities of a longer range missile but are used when entering combat at shorter, within-visual range and are generally more 'manoeuvrable' than long ranger BVR (beyond visual range) missiles so they still have their place on fighter aircraft. These should be enough for normal air policing duties and other necessary day to day requirements of an air force not expected to be involved in some kind of catastrophic conflict in the upcoming years.

I'm sure the PESA radar on the L-15 is real, but the lack of follow up information is concerning (afterall we're still talking about, what ever happened to the WP-14?). The JL-9G has already been put on display at trade shows with SD-10A (the export variant of the Chinese PL-12) right in front of it so I can only assume that such configurations are possible. I also assume a lot of military spending is on the backburner for cash strapped countries with COVID still disrupting global economies, and therefore new supersonic fighter aircraft are not the top priority for many countries although as things get better, so will military exports inevitably. Just be glad that Uruguay did not opt for refurbished Kfirs, Daggers and Cheetahs, the '0-hour airframes' that were once touted have been shown to be nothing but a marketing gimmick.

Grupo2 · Jul 1, 2021

Semi-Lobster said:
It's basically the definition of 'Within visual range', short range missiles lack the long range, potential first strike capabilities of a longer range missile but are used when entering combat at shorter, within-visual range and are generally more 'manoeuvrable' than long ranger BVR (beyond visual range) missiles so they still have their place on fighter aircraft. These should be enough for normal air policing duties and other necessary day to day requirements of an air force not expected to be involved in some kind of catastrophic conflict in the upcoming years.

I'm sure the PESA radar on the L-15 is real, but the lack of follow up information is concerning (afterall we're still talking about, what ever happened to the WP-14?). The JL-9G has already been put on display at trade shows with SD-10A (the export variant of the Chinese PL-12) right in front of it so I can only assume that such configurations are possible. I also assume a lot of military spending is on the backburner for cash strapped countries with COVID still disrupting global economies, and therefore new supersonic fighter aircraft are not the top priority for many countries although as things get better, so will military exports inevitably. Just be glad that Uruguay did not opt for refurbished Kfirs, Daggers and Cheetahs, the '0-hour airframes' that were once touted have been shown to be nothing but a marketing gimmick.

Interesting info, Semi-Lobster, thanks. In particular I didn't know the Zambian L-15's were radar equipped, this is significant since it's the first export of the type with radar that I am aware of.

You are correct in saying that Covid has effected many procurement plans and Uruguay suffered a very bad recent wave which will complicate spending but the need for a aircraft with interception capabilities is real, the illegal flights that regularly bring drugs into Uruguay from the rest of Latin America are a real threat to national security and the current government remains committed to the acquisition.

The L-15 has been mentioned as a candidate since Uruguayan military staff visited Hongdu in 2016, and it remains a strong candidate based on the good relations between Uruguay and China - the expectation on the Uruguayan side is to leverage that relationship to get favourable terms for a buy maybe as part of a wider trade agreement (Uruguay is small but is an producer of food products that China needs like pork, beef and soy)

There is no doubt the L-15 has the potential to meet FAU needs but details of equipment fit would need to be worked out.

A radar with limited range would still be of great use, remember the FAU would be transitioning from the A-A-3

Grupo2 · Jul 1, 2021

Grupo2 said:
Interesting info, Semi-Lobster, thanks. In particular I didn't know the Zambian L-15's were radar equipped, this is significant since it's the first export of the type with radar that I am aware of.

You are correct in saying that Covid has effected many procurement plans and Uruguay suffered a very bad recent wave which will complicate spending but the need for a aircraft with interception capabilities is real, the illegal flights that regularly bring drugs into Uruguay from the rest of Latin America are a real threat to national security and the current government remains committed to the acquisition.

The L-15 has been mentioned as a candidate since Uruguayan military staff visited Hongdu in 2016, and it remains a strong candidate based on the good relations between Uruguay and China - the expectation on the Uruguayan side is to leverage that relationship to get favourable terms for a buy maybe as part of a wider trade agreement (Uruguay is small but is an producer of food products that China needs like pork, beef and soy)

There is no doubt the L-15 has the potential to meet FAU needs but details of equipment fit would need to be worked out.

A radar with limited range would still be of great use, remember the FAU would be transitioning from the A-A-3

A radar with limited range would still be of great use, remember the FAU would be transitioning from the A-37 so a radar of any type would be a huge advance, in particular something with look-down-shoot-down capability would be useful for interception of low flying light aircraft that run drugs into the country.

Any weapons beyond a cannon (23mm in this case?) Is a bonus. Short range AAM's have never been operated by the FAU so the PL-5 for example would be a quantum leap. BVR and laser guided air to ground munitions would be the realm of science fiction for the FAU but important remember these types of advanced weapons are great but not essential - Uruguayan defence doctrine is not based on full conflict with other nations (relations with Argentina and Brazil are good and the defence against these nations is not part of defence planning as far as I know).

So it keeps coming back to the radar - this piece of kit is key to FAU requirements and will go a long way to determine if Hongdu are successful.

The JL-9 is an interesting (and cheaper?) Option but I have never heard it mentioned by FAU or government officials.

The JL-8 was offered a few years ago but has never gotten any interest from the FAU, it's not much of an advance over the A-37 other than being new.

No doubt the Party would be very keen to get another customer for Chinese combat aircraft in Latin America, so this will be interesting to watch.

Semi-Lobster · Jul 1, 2021

Grupo2 said:
Interesting info, Semi-Lobster, thanks. In particular I didn't know the Zambian L-15's were radar equipped, this is significant since it's the first export of the type with radar that I am aware of.

You are correct in saying that Covid has effected many procurement plans and Uruguay suffered a very bad recent wave which will complicate spending but the need for a aircraft with interception capabilities is real, the illegal flights that regularly bring drugs into Uruguay from the rest of Latin America are a real threat to national security and the current government remains committed to the acquisition.

The L-15 has been mentioned as a candidate since Uruguayan military staff visited Hongdu in 2016, and it remains a strong candidate based on the good relations between Uruguay and China - the expectation on the Uruguayan side is to leverage that relationship to get favourable terms for a buy maybe as part of a wider trade agreement (Uruguay is small but is an producer of food products that China needs like pork, beef and soy)

There is no doubt the L-15 has the potential to meet FAU needs but details of equipment fit would need to be worked out.

A radar with limited range would still be of great use, remember the FAU would be transitioning from the A-A-3

Grupo2 said:
A radar with limited range would still be of great use, remember the FAU would be transitioning from the A-37 so a radar of any type would be a huge advance, in particular something with look-down-shoot-down capability would be useful for interception of low flying light aircraft that run drugs into the country.

Any weapons beyond a cannon (23mm in this case?) Is a bonus. Short range AAM's have never been operated by the FAU so the PL-5 for example would be a quantum leap. BVR and laser guided air to ground munitions would be the realm of science fiction for the FAU but important remember these types of advanced weapons are great but not essential - Uruguayan defence doctrine is not based on full conflict with other nations (relations with Argentina and Brazil are good and the defence against these nations is not part of defence planning as far as I know).

So it keeps coming back to the radar - this piece of kit is key to FAU requirements and will go a long way to determine if Hongdu are successful.

The JL-9 is an interesting (and cheaper?) Option but I have never heard it mentioned by FAU or government officials.

The JL-8 was offered a few years ago but has never gotten any interest from the FAU, it's not much of an advance over the A-37 other than being new.

No doubt the Party would be very keen to get another customer for Chinese combat aircraft in Latin America, so this will be interesting to watch.

The Zambian export so far is the ONLY export of the L-15 so far, so technically 100% of all export models have had radar! Unlike fighter jets and advanced bombers, trainers do not have have as big a following and so there is less written material floating around about them. The situation in China with the domestic JL-10 so far seems to have been split into three major blocks from what I've read. The First 'status 01' JL-10s which have entered service with the PLAAF all lack a radar and were equipped with non-afterburning Ukrainian engines. In 2018, what have been called JL-10IIs (Status 02) were spotted entering PLAAF service. The difference is these JL-10IIs have been modified with a a new dorsal UHF/VHF antenna and a larger nose housing a new PF fire control radar (JL-10G/SY-80A). The SY-80 is compatible with several notable munitions such as the PL-5EII AAMs, PL-8B, and LS-6 GPS/INS bombs.

In 2019, yet another variant has rumoured already popping up in PLAAF colours is the JL-10III (Status 03) which many observers are suggesting are in fact equipped with this new mystery PESA radar who's name we still aren't sure of yet. There are additional rumours that Hongdu is privately attempting to present the L-15 as a replacement for the retired Q-5 attack jet fleet but I don't think anything has come of that in a few years.

The JL-9G (export name, FTC-2000G) would theoretically be cheaper to buy and operate, allegedly a sale to a 'South East Asian Country' (probably Cambodia from the looks of things) was made in 2020 but no details have so far been revealed. The earlier JL-9 was exported to Sudan. On paper the JL-9 and its variants would be a simpler fit for Uruguay, no issues of afterburning, supersonic capabilities like L-15 variants, as all JL-9s are supersonic. The same radar as the JL-10II with the basic SY-80 X Band PD radar and the potential that there is a more powerful radar compatible with the JL-9G is also a real possibility which also means BVR capabilities. Lastly, all the benefits of also being a LIFT training aircraft but without an offer of the JL-9 to Uruguay in the first place by AVIC, we just have to assume that the proposal is just not on the table. It could simply be that, for all its bells and whistles, the JL-9 at the end of the day, is a very, very advanced MiG-21 and not exactly the most 'showy' entry of China into the light combat aircraft market of South America (but this is all speculation of course).

I know South America is reeling from COVID, many nations mismanaged the initial response, the vaccine rollout and even countries who were more responsible had to face consequences from neighbouring countries who were not responsible. This makes spending money on defence less palatable to a lot of countries (which is completely understandable). Air policing though is a serious consideration, a country that cannot patrol and secure its own air space is inevitably reliant on its neighbours for its defence. The ability to intercept and potentially engage commercial civilian air traffic should be the basic goal of every air force to ensure air traffic safety (think of a situation like September 11, where a civilian airliner, may have to be intercepted), this is why subsonic aircraft are not optimal for air policing roles as they cannot climb high and fast enough to intercept a conventional civilian jet quickly. That is not to say subsonic aircraft can't be used in emergencies, look at the recent Royal Malaysian Air Force interception of PLAAF aircraft near Borneo with their BaE Hawk 208s, but in dangerous situations, seconds do count.

Grupo2 · Jul 1, 2021

Semi-Lobster said:
The Zambian export so far is the ONLY export of the L-15 so far, so technically 100% of all export models have had radar! Unlike fighter jets and advanced bombers, trainers do not have have as big a following and so there is less written material floating around about them. The situation in China with the domestic JL-10 so far seems to have been split into three major blocks from what I've read. The First 'status 01' JL-10s which have entered service with the PLAAF all lack a radar and were equipped with non-afterburning Ukrainian engines. In 2018, what have been called JL-10IIs (Status 02) were spotted entering PLAAF service. The difference is these JL-10IIs have been modified with a a new dorsal UHF/VHF antenna and a larger nose housing a new PF fire control radar (JL-10G/SY-80A). The SY-80 is compatible with several notable munitions such as the PL-5EII AAMs, PL-8B, and LS-6 GPS/INS bombs.

View attachment 74135

In 2019, yet another variant has rumoured already popping up in PLAAF colours is the JL-10III (Status 03) which many observers are suggesting are in fact equipped with this new mystery PESA radar who's name we still aren't sure of yet. There are additional rumours that Hongdu is privately attempting to present the L-15 as a replacement for the retired Q-5 attack jet fleet but I don't think anything has come of that in a few years.

The JL-9G (export name, FTC-2000G) would theoretically be cheaper to buy and operate, allegedly a sale to a 'South East Asian Country' (probably Cambodia from the looks of things) was made in 2020 but no details have so far been revealed. The earlier JL-9 was exported to Sudan. On paper the JL-9 and its variants would be a simpler fit for Uruguay, no issues of afterburning, supersonic capabilities like L-15 variants, as all JL-9s are supersonic. The same radar as the JL-10II with the basic SY-80 X Band PD radar and the potential that there is a more powerful radar compatible with the JL-9G is also a real possibility which also means BVR capabilities. Lastly, all the benefits of also being a LIFT training aircraft but without an offer of the JL-9 to Uruguay in the first place by AVIC, we just have to assume that the proposal is just not on the table. It could simply be that, for all its bells and whistles, the JL-9 at the end of the day, is a very, very advanced MiG-21 and not exactly the most 'showy' entry of China into the light combat aircraft market of South America (but this is all speculation of course).

View attachment 74145

I know South America is reeling from COVID, many nations mismanaged the initial response, the vaccine rollout and even countries who were more responsible had to face consequences from neighbouring countries who were not responsible. This makes spending money on defence less palatable to a lot of countries (which is completely understandable). Air policing though is a serious consideration, a country that cannot patrol and secure its own air space is inevitably reliant on its neighbours for its defence. The ability to intercept and potentially engage commercial civilian air traffic should be the basic goal of every air force to ensure air traffic safety (think of a situation like September 11, where a civilian airliner, may have to be intercepted), this is why subsonic aircraft are not optimal for air policing roles as they cannot climb high and fast enough to intercept a conventional civilian jet quickly. That is not to say subsonic aircraft can't be used in emergencies, look at the recent Royal Malaysian Air Force interception of PLAAF aircraft near Borneo with their BaE Hawk 208s, but in dangerous situations, seconds do count.

Very good summary thanks. I think this is an example of a small scale order that might be getting outside attention in Beijing this would be a significant contract for a country that's traditionally buys Western aircraft and the information I have is that it remains a very solid contender so we will see.

As for the JL-9 - if I'm not mistaken the back end of that aircraft is essentially a late j7 so a fairly tried and tested aircraft that they have added quite a bit of modern avionics and systems to, if I was negotiating for the Uruguayan government I would be asking about a small batch of JL-9s and an additional batch of low time refurbished J-7G's and just see what kind of offer they could come up with

Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Julio Ramos

Junior Member

Philister

Junior Member

Grupo2

New Member

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member

SteelBird

Colonel

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member

Grupo2

New Member

Grupo2

New Member

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member

Grupo2

New Member