Chinese tradition, ceremony,culture

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Why should modern Chinese even bother what the west mass media say about what Chinese does right or wrong? Self-confidence means caring less (not totally ignoring) of others. Overly caring others' opinion will make one subjected to manipulation without even knowing.

For example, taking up western definition of (nation) state makes Chinese question the very existence of China being a state of thousands of years. Another example, taking up the western definition of language and culture makes Chinese to question the unity of its heritage as an unified one and amplify the differences among us.

I say, Fxxk what the western media says, I don't care. The Chinese ideas are different from the west, and rightly so, and should remain so, and should spread as how they are.
 
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I know that is why I put disclaimer first. As usual the new is about how the government now prepare young woman for life as home maker and career woman. And the western press turn it into smear campaign using their myopic cultural lens of western society aka feminism

The liberation change the social and economical standing of Chinese woman and for most part for the better . But I also notice somewhere along the way something is missing like the the poise and grace of oriental lady. Mind you it also occur worldwide where people has less time for niceties

I found the news is interesting that China now is bringing back the teaching that woman is not only career woman but also gracious home maker and role model for their children

To be clear there are plenty of Westerners who do not believe in feminism.

If you can say that worldwide people have less time for niceties then poise and grace is merely missing from people worldwide, rather than just for "oriental lady".

I would also advocate that men are also not limited to being career man but also gracious home maker and role model for their children.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
To be clear there are plenty of Westerners who do not believe in feminism.

If you can say that worldwide people have less time for niceties then poise and grace is merely missing from people worldwide, rather than just for "oriental lady".

I would also advocate that men are also not limited to being career man but also gracious home maker and role model for their children.

I don't see any problem between modernity and etiquette or manner. Just because you live in modern time does not mean you can throw away etiquette and manner Look at Japan I am not saying Japan is perfect But in general they are polite and correct when dealing with relation Though sometime I feel their correctness is a way to keep distance

You see this contrast immediately when you travel Unfortunately "some" Mainland Chinese sometime behave uncouth and embarrassing like this video Young ladies were ask to leave a restaurant because they threw shrimp shell on the floor

or this

So etiquette is important where I come from it is drilled from Childhood how to behave correctly in certain circumstances
 
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SilentObserver

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't see any problem between modernity and etiquette or manner. Just because you live in modern time does not mean you can throw away etiquette and manner Look at Japan I am not saying Japan is perfect But in general they are polite and correct when dealing with relation Though sometime I feel their correctness is a way to keep distance

You see this contrast immediately when you travel Unfortunately "some" Mainland Chinese sometime behave uncouth and embarrassing like this video Young ladies were ask to leave a restaurant because they threw shrimp shell on the floor

or this

So etiquette is important where I come from it is drilled from Childhood how to behave correctly in certain circumstances
Since 1979 China had initiated a massive wealth transfer program to the rural population. One of the main methods was the land acquisition compensation. Millions of Chinese farmers got moderately wealthy this way, if they were lucky to have lived around a developed part of China then they got really wealthy. They got money and real estate as compensation. The good thing is that they gained a free ticket into economic mobility and many have low education and etiquette levels. This is a double edged sword. The other perspective is that China has many rich hillbillies roaming around.

Those with higher education and etiquette wouldn't necessarily have benefited from the scheme, thus must work and study hard to earn their economic mobility. Fortunately for China, they have a sizable educated young population, a great improvement from years past. I think the current social issues would eventually sort itself out.
 
I don't see any problem between modernity and etiquette or manner. Just because you live in modern time does not mean you can throw away etiquette and manner Look at Japan I am not saying Japan is perfect But in general they are polite and correct when dealing with relation Though sometime I feel their correctness is a way to keep distance

You see this contrast immediately when you travel Unfortunately "some" Mainland Chinese sometime behave uncouth and embarrassing like this video Young ladies were ask to leave a restaurant because they threw shrimp shell on the floor

or this

So etiquette is important where I come from it is drilled from Childhood how to behave correctly in certain circumstances

I don't see any problem between modernity and etiquette either. I am saying etiquette doesn't have to be "traditional", that there are various acceptable sets and ranges of etiquette even within a country or culture, and what is acceptable etiquette changes.
 

solarz

Brigadier
I don't see any problem between modernity and etiquette or manner. Just because you live in modern time does not mean you can throw away etiquette and manner Look at Japan I am not saying Japan is perfect But in general they are polite and correct when dealing with relation Though sometime I feel their correctness is a way to keep distance

You see this contrast immediately when you travel Unfortunately "some" Mainland Chinese sometime behave uncouth and embarrassing like this video Young ladies were ask to leave a restaurant because they threw shrimp shell on the floor

At the risk of sounding cliche, comparing China and Japan is like comparing apples and oranges.

Japan is a small, relatively homogenous nation. China is a huge and enormously diverse nation.

From your posts, I suspect you've had little exposure to the diversity of Chinese culture. I myself was not aware of this until I spent some time traveling the length and breadth of the country. Even though I have not even touched a bare fraction of what China has to offer, it nevertheless opened my eyes to the amount of variation and differences in a culture that is nominally all "Chinese".

Since 1979 China had initiated a massive wealth transfer program to the rural population. One of the main methods was the land acquisition compensation. Millions of Chinese farmers got moderately wealthy this way, if they were lucky to have lived around a developed part of China then they got really wealthy. They got money and real estate as compensation. The good thing is that they gained a free ticket into economic mobility and many have low education and etiquette levels. This is a double edged sword. The other perspective is that China has many rich hillbillies roaming around.

Those with higher education and etiquette wouldn't necessarily have benefited from the scheme, thus must work and study hard to earn their economic mobility. Fortunately for China, they have a sizable educated young population, a great improvement from years past. I think the current social issues would eventually sort itself out.

You're mostly right, though I don't like the term "hillbillies". My maternal grandparents were both academics while my paternal grandparents did not even finish elementary school. All my life I've witnessed first hand the conflicts that arise from a family with an educated background interacting with a family without such a background, and I can honestly say there is no moral high ground.

For the longest time, under my mom's influence, I looked down on my father's side of the family, believing they were uncouth and greedy. Then I witnessed real greed from my mother side of the family, greed that tore the family apart. I witnessed my maternal grandfather, a university professor who spent his life imparting higher education, acting in a selfish and feudalistic manner. I saw one of my uncles turn against my grandmother, his own mom, over money. At the same time, I had more opportunity to interact, as an adult, with my father's side of the family, and I found them refreshingly direct and down-to-earth.

Watching that video about the Japanese restaurant, I can't help but see the same kind of veiled contempt from the Japanese server. If the Chinese patrons stayed over their time limit, would not a politely worded reminder have achieved better results? If they did actually drop some food from the table (and really, who doesn't at some point?), would not yet another polite reminder have served better?

So who is really lacking in etiquette here?
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Thanks @solarz, very well said.

Education, possession of knowledge does NOT automatically give one Morality, kindness. Education and training of manner only give one the outwardly "nice" looking. Without inner kindness, it is just empty shell. By the words of "贾母, 红楼梦", it is "精致的淘气", meaning "sophisticated naughty". By the words of a professor (my neighbor), it is "有知识,没文化", meaning "knowledgeable but uncivilized". "红楼梦" is the perfect book, a condensation of Chinese thought and demonstration of the "perfectly mannered poisonous snake". I like manner, and I try to act accordingly, but paying too much focus on manner, especially some rigid forms, misses the essence of being a good person.

China is a continent, it is only appropriate to be compared with the whole Europe, the whole east Asia, the whole Middle East, the whole South America, the whole Africa. Only then, one can get the right perspective and meaningful understanding. Otherwise, it is just clueless.

And one thing about Japan is that it has imported every details of Chinese etiquette and perfected them further. But Japan missed the very core of what makes China great and giant. It got an empty shell.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
At the risk of sounding cliche, comparing China and Japan is like comparing apples and oranges.

Japan is a small, relatively homogenous nation. China is a huge and enormously diverse nation.

From your posts, I suspect you've had little exposure to the diversity of Chinese culture. I myself was not aware of this until I spent some time traveling the length and breadth of the country. Even though I have not even touched a bare fraction of what China has to offer, it nevertheless opened my eyes to the amount of variation and differences in a culture that is nominally all "Chinese".

You're mostly right, though I don't like the term "hillbillies". My maternal grandparents were both academics while my paternal grandparents did not even finish elementary school. All my life I've witnessed first hand the conflicts that arise from a family with an educated background interacting with a family without such a background, and I can honestly say there is no moral high ground.

For the longest time, under my mom's influence, I looked down on my father's side of the family, believing they were uncouth and greedy. Then I witnessed real greed from my mother side of the family, greed that tore the family apart. I witnessed my maternal grandfather, a university professor who spent his life imparting higher education, acting in a selfish and feudalistic manner. I saw one of my uncles turn against my grandmother, his own mom, over money. At the same time, I had more opportunity to interact, as an adult, with my father's side of the family, and I found them refreshingly direct and down-to-earth.

Watching that video about the Japanese restaurant, I can't help but see the same kind of veiled contempt from the Japanese server. If the Chinese patrons stayed over their time limit, would not a politely worded reminder have achieved better results? If they did actually drop some food from the table (and really, who doesn't at some point?), would not yet another polite reminder have served better?

So who is really lacking in etiquette here?

We should not try to cover or justified a asocial behavior. The central government recognized this problem and try to educate the people how to behave in public by instituting social credit.
It is a bit harsh but yea I can understand the reason

China too is homogeneous 90% of the population are Han And Japan copy almost everything from China including etiquette and custom .Even the peasant in Japan has relatively good etiquette So I won't necessarily blame poverty or education for the lack of etiquette. Culture and upbringing has more to do with it . That is why I said that Xi effort to return to the traditional culture should be applauded whole heartedly

I mean I don't blame mainland Chinese. I do have high respect for them for their hard work and dedication Circumstances make people different All those dislocation war and chaos take their toll. compounded by political infighting and the need to survive in 80's and 90's does not lend itself to etiquette and niceties
Contrast that to the relative piece that Japan enjoy 350 years of Tokugawa reign give them plenty of time for refined life

Peasantry has nothing to do with etiquette Most of overseas Chinese are descendant of riff raff, petty criminal and landless peasantry. But even the lowest peasant has kernel of culture in them
They might not know the poem of Li Bai or Qu Yuan But they know what is proper and what is not.As soon as they have money they hire teacher from China to teach their children proper etiquette

LKY himself acknowledge this fact in his conversation with Deng. There is no doubt as to who has the better pedigree. He said the best and brightest does not immigrate. He said he has no doubt that China will achieved high development even better than Singapore

I have no doubt that as China prosper and maintain stability those etiquette will return. You can see in the huge interest of Chinese traditional value and etiquette
And debate going on now as what it mean to be Chinese
 
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solarz

Brigadier
We should not try to cover or justified a asocial behavior. The central government recognized this problem and try to educate the people how to behave in public by instituting social credit.
It is a bit harsh but yea I can understand the reason

China too is homogeneous 90% of the population are Han And Japan copy almost everything from China including etiquette and custom .Even the peasant in Japan has relatively good etiquette So I won't necessarily blame poverty or education for the lack of etiquette. Culture and upbringing has more to do with it . That is why I said that Xi effort to return to the traditional culture should be applauded whole heartedly

I mean I don't blame mainland Chinese. I do have high respect for them for their hard work and dedication Circumstances make people different All those dislocation war and chaos take their toll. compounded by political infighting and the need to survive in 80's and 90's does not lend itself to etiquette and niceties
Contrast that to the relative piece that Japan enjoy 350 years of Tokugawa reign give them plenty of time for refined life

Peasantry has nothing to do with etiquette Most of overseas Chinese are descendant of riff raff, petty criminal and landless peasantry. But even the lowest peasant has kernel of culture in them
They might not know the poem of Li Bai or Qu Yuan But they know what is proper and what is not.As soon as they have money they hire teacher from China to teach their children proper etiquette

LKY himself acknowledge this fact in his conversation with Deng. There is no doubt as to who has the better pedigree. He said the best and brightest does not immigrate. He said he has no doubt that China will achieved high development even better than Singapore

I have no doubt that as China prosper and maintain stability those etiquette will return. You can see in the huge interest of Chinese traditional value and etiquette
And debate going on now as what it mean to be Chinese

Han is a social construct. It is actually an amalgamation of various tribes and cultures. Through history, as the Chinese civilization expanded, many "barbarian" tribes and kingdoms integrated into the Chinese civilization and became Han. The Kingdom of Qin was considered a barbarian kingdom before its rise to prominence.

This diversity of origins has become a diversity of cultures in modern China. While all regions of China share many common cultural traits, they also have many subtle differences. Northerners, for example, are more blunt and assertive, while Southerners are more reserved in public.

One time, I was visiting my grandfather's grave with my dad and my uncle. The cemetary was built like a temple, and we were standing outside chatting when my uncle finished his drink and threw the empty bottle on the ground. My father admonished him for throwing garbage on the street, but my uncle laughed and said someone would be by to pick it up shortly. Indeed, as I looked around, I could not see a single garbage can within sight, but I did see several street cleaners.

I also remember back when I was first dating my wife, she gave my mom a gift from her mother. She didn't think much of it, but my mom was very upset over the gift. Why was this woman she barely knew giving her a gift? Did she have some kind of ulterior motive? To my mom, you gave gifts to friends or someone you needed help from. A gift like this felt insincere, even manipulative. To my mother-in-law, giving a gift to somebody you barely knew was a gesture of friendliness.

Then there was the time my wife (then fiancée) told me that in order for her to marry me, my family had to give her family a large sum of money. I had never heard of such a thing (but have since learned that it's a common practice in China), and was very upset by the request. This became a major point of contention. My wife told me her father would lose face if he could not tell his friends he received a lot of money from my family, and I, at the time, thought that utterly ridiculous.

When I grew up, my parents always taught me not to bother friends with trivial matters. If a friend helps you, etiquette requires you to return that favor as early as possible. My wife, however, taught me that you should seek help from friends as much as possible, and not be so caught-up on returning the favor, as it was in such interactions that friendship grows stronger. I had always been taught to be very polite to my uncles and aunts. To my wife's family, that kind of politeness was off-putting. Ironically, her family is very keen on certain etiquette around the dinner table on special occasions. One could only eat after one's elders have started eating. The younger generation had to toast the older generation. In contrast, my family has always been very casual in that regard.

I've been to plenty of restaurants in China, mostly small places tucked deep in residential neighborhoods, where people would toss food scraps on the floor and the server would sweep it up. I've also been told by a young security guard to leave the front of a hotel because I was riding a bike at the time. Again, I urge anyone who wants to truly understand Chinese culture to spend some time traveling the country. Only then will you realize how much of what you thought was the entirety of Chinese culture was really just a tiny fragment of a great mosaic.
 
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