Chinese semiconductor thread II

[Wahid145]

This is understandable, because Mate is their most high-end series and require LPDDR5X. CXMT did not produce LPDDR5X at that time. They started LPDDR5 last year and now DDR5. So hopefully CXMT LPDDR5X is not that far away.

Same with NAND. Huawei used YMTC 232L NAND for Pura and Nova. But YMTC doesn't make that chip anymore. YMTC's new de-Americanized NAND is only 160L at the moment. As we discussed here before, while it has much higher per-layer density, the overall density is still less than their 232L chip. If YMTC can get this process to 192L then it would have better density than current 232L devices from competitors.

What would be the reason for YMTC to stop making 233L NAND after the sanction if they were making it from before, is it that some of those equipment depreciated and could not obtain spare parts or replaced?

I feel YMTC is one of those companies heavily affected by the sanction. I remember on 2021-2022 they were almost always in the news about new breakthrough even surpassing industry leaders like Samsung and SKHynix in bit density in NAND.

Anyone knows if YMTC is working towards DRAM? That rumor keeps coming and going but no concrete news on that.

I just hope YMTC can start sprinting ahead as soon as possible again

 

[tokenanalyst]

but Huawei's CEO said, MATE70 all chips are 100 percent domestically produced.. maybe he talked about those DRAMS produced in China by Sk hynix. LOL

Nova and Pura series used domestically produced DRAM/flash memory.

those Sk hynix products released in the market in early 2022 so there is a strong possibility, Huawei acquired chips before completely cut off..

Well is this social media post is true then the CN in the marking indicates that the NAND is made in China and probably the DRAM too.

 

[sunnymaxi]

Well is this social media post is true then the CN in the marking indicates that the NAND is made in China and probably the DRAM too.

just two months before Mate70, Huawei released NOVA13 pro which is 100 percent domestically produced using CXMT/YMTC products.. its pretty normal to start from low to mid then jump to higher end.. CXMT just started their journey..

Pura80 is coming too then Mate80 so we can see CXMT in these two models..

 

[tokenanalyst]

Hua Hong Semiconductor applies for patents for integrated semiconductor devices and their manufacturing methods to improve the overall anti-EMI capability of chips​

According to information from the State Intellectual Property Office, Hua Hong Semiconductor (Wuxi) Co., Ltd. and Shanghai Hua Hong Hongli Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., Ltd. have applied for an integrated semiconductor device and its preparation method.
Information from the National Intellectual Property Administration shows that Hua Hong Semiconductor (Wuxi) Co., Ltd. and Shanghai Huahong Grace Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., Ltd. have applied for a patent titled "Integrated semiconductor devices and methods for their preparation", publication number CN 119133083 A, and the application date is August 2024.
The patent abstract shows that the present application provides an integrated semiconductor device and a method for preparing the same. In the method for preparing the integrated semiconductor device, DTI (a first deep trench isolation structure, a second deep trench isolation structure) and SOI (a bottom silicon substrate, an intermediate oxide layer, and a top silicon substrate) are combined to form full dielectric isolation, thereby completely isolating the CMOS devices (this embodiment takes NMOS devices as an example) and LDMOS devices on the SOI, improving the overall anti-EMI capability of the chip, completely eliminating the parasitic bipolar effect, eliminating the risk of latch-up, and thus improving the circuit operation reliability.

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[Phead128]

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U.S. Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo said in an interview that the country should focus more on investments in domestic innovation than applying bans and sanctions. “Trying to hold China back is a fool’s errand,” said the politician. ......“The only way to beat China is to stay ahead of them,” said Sec. Raimondo. “We have to run faster, out innovate them. That’s the way to win.”

Despite the various export controls that the U.S. has applied against several Chinese companies, many of its companies are still able to procure banned chips through the black market and unofficial conduits. Aside from that, Chinese innovation is seemingly continuing, with many businesses and organizations forced to be creative in pursuing their goals despite the roadblocks posed by American sanctions.

So the chief architect of BIS controls, Gina Raimondo, admits that US sanctions has done nothing little except accelerate China's innovation, and that stopping China's tech progress is a virtually impossible task. This is a significant admission, given that US has imposes thousands of sanctions, yet they merely a 'speed bump' as far as Chinese innovation is concerned.

 

[huemens]

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And they are still looking for more ways to sanction. Now they are looking to block sale of Nvidia chips to even more countries, for fear of those chips ending up in china.

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A brand-new Biden administration change is attempting to close that particular loophole, according to Wall Street Journal reports – an executive order that is allegedly pending in the White House would limit sales of chips anywhere in the world, to stem efforts to smuggle or resell to China on the gray market.

Insiders contend that U.S. chip makers are doing all they can to prevent this executive order from coming out

 

[tphuang]

And they are still looking for more ways to sanction. Now they are looking to block sale of Nvidia chips to even more countries, for fear of those chips ending up in china.

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lol, it's too late. As I said, China is swimming in AI chips. They already have way more chips than they ever need for training stuff. As for inference, all these Chinese AI models like Qwen, Deepseek, Hunyun and 01 are running on open source platforms in America. Just a bunch of people with no sense of reality putting in policies.

 

[tphuang]

Information about DRAM and NAND chips on Huawei Mate 70, supposedly citing Techinsights
View attachment 141299

I'm honestly surprised CXMT is supplying them with DRAM at all, given that it escaped getting put on entity list due to intense lobbying and previously not supply Huawei with DRAMs for their phones.

Aside from that, you can see YMTC is supplying Huawei with 232L TLC on both Nova 13 Pro and Pure 70 Pro+/Ultra + 128L TLC for Pure 70/Pro models

So I don't think it's a performance issue. They may just not be ready to supply all the NAND chips that Huawei need right now or Huawei has stocked up too much Korean stuff that still need to be worked through.

The above image seems legit from TechInsights: only an analysis lab can put up such a detailed table with die markings and all.

We were expecting the Mate 70, released at the end of November to be the first 100% fully domestic phone....instead the honor goes to a phone released even one month earlier, on 22 October 2024: the

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.

So this is the first certified 100% Chinese localized phone and the first HW phone to use CXMT memory, the missing last piece of the puzzle.

It makes totally sense for HW to empty Sk and Samsung inventory before moving fully domestic: they clear old inventory and at the same time give some more time and experience to local producers before exclusively jump on the 100% Chinese bandwagon.

From an engineering POW makes totally sense to test a new supplier (CXMT) on a mid range before upgrading it to top range, and the HW Nova 13 Pro fits nicely in this scheme.

I would say the HW Nova 13 Pro will be remembered in the future as a huge milestone and the successful end of a lengthy and painful journey started in 2018: 6 very long years ago.

for me, it still remains to be seen if they will use CXMT full time. Clearly, sourcing Korean DRAMs is not a problem. Until CXMT delivers LPDDR5X product, Huawei probably don't want to use them for flagship series of Mate & Pura.
But Nova and Enjoy series should be able to use CXMT (if they are not afraid of entity listed)

Now they've gotten DDR5/D1z in production + LPDDR5 in production and verified in the past month. Pretty big quarter for CXMT.

If they can get LPDDR5X/D1a in production next year, they'd basically have a competitive product for domestic OEMs, even if bit density is still a few years behind.

 

[tphuang]

Kirin cpu in low end huawei phone

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wait, so they've gotten the RF module cost down so much that even budget phones can support satcom and 5.5G?

That's bad news for Qorvo and Qualcomm

 

[tokenanalyst]

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So the chief architect of BIS controls, Gina Raimondo, admits that US sanctions has done nothing little except accelerate China's innovation, and that stopping China's tech progress is a virtually impossible task. This is a significant admission, given that US has imposes thousands of sanctions, yet they merely a 'speed bump' as far as Chinese innovation is concerned.

The most ironic thing is that US and other companies monopolistic position in the Chinese market was basically the biggest constraint for China semiconductor and IT industries, with Chinese liberals and industrialists being the biggest cheerleaders for US monopolies inside China. Government spending wasted because lack of demand. Chinese companies like Naura, AMEC and Empyrean EDA force to serve niche markets to keep themselves afloat. A big semiconductor industry but disconnected in the inside.

At the end if Huawei had access to foreign chips they wouldn't being buying local chips, Huawei biggest chip supplier was not HiSilicon but Qualcomm, SMIC wouldn't being buying domestic tools, materials and software, Most Chinese design houses would be making their chips in TSMC and UMC, ASML monopolistic position in China has always being SMEE biggest enemy. These sanctions changed the market forces holding back basically most domestic companies, all the sudden having US made products was liability, big companies had been scrambling themselves inside China to secure their supply chains. "domestic substitution" went from a government slogan to a marketing strategy for companies.

I do think from previous posts since 2019 that sadly a lot of Chinese companies would have resigned to accept being ONE generation behind, like having a access to NVIDIA A800 instead of the H100, SMIC having access to the ASML family of immersion scanners instead of EUV, making their chips on TSMC 5nm process node or even 7nm instead of TSMC 2-3nm process node, Huawei having access to Corvo previous RF technology instead of being totally banned or access to Qualcomm 5G chips instead of being totally banned. But being banned to multiple generation back was unacceptable even for the most thick headed Chinese liberals and industrialists.​