Chinese semiconductor industry

Status
Not open for further replies.

bettydice

Junior Member
Registered Member
2) In the smartphone arena, it is healtier for China market to have a number of medium sized, focused companies, than a super-heavy weight, with interest in hundreds of different fields, that dominates the market. It's like US made some kind of anti-trust job for China...free of charge :)
Another "enemy is doing us good!" self-rationalization and self-comforting. Sour grapes. "Those grapes were sour. They thankfully took away the sour grapes for us!" As if Huawei was the super-heavy weight, monopolistic sole smartphone company in China. China already had many medium sized and small sized focused smartphone companies regardless of sanction. If there is a problem in China, it's China's job to sort it out, that's the right attitude. And as if the Chinese market was the only market that China needs to care about, and suppressing a big Chinese company was somehow an anti-trust job. Already Apple is dominating the Chinese market more than before, of course in addition to the already dominating wealthy markets i.e. Western and Japanese market as always. I don't know how on earth that is an anti-trust job for China. You do not think about the aspect of Chinese companies selling in other markets.

These days, smartphone isn't an island, it's the hub for whole other smart devices and the platform consisting of "hundreds of different fields" and expands to/combine home, auto, health, engine and all kinds of services and software in the smartphone, and uses and contains technology and knowhow from "hundreds of different fields" in designing and making smartphones from every component, all of which together demanding tremendous amount of capital and labor, collaboration and synergy between so many different departments under the company, which smaller companies can't/won't do.

Anti-trust job? In reality there are inevitable reasons why only a couple of tech dinosaur companies dominate and have monopoly in each field in the world and even the US government is tolerating that monopoly in this age unlike in the past. Chrome would not sustain if not under Google. People these days want to be in All-Apple ecosystem or All-Google ecosystem. Brand recognition and brand value are what China lacks and that's partly a reason why people often say "Chinese phones", "Chinese OEMs". I feel you describe Huawei as "a super-heavy weight" but even for "super-heavy weight" Huawei or BBK, their global presence is still in its infancy compared to American giants. "medium sized, focused companies" you say which are even smaller than Huawei are irrelevant outside China. Medium sized companies just don't have enough resources to operate and manage things on the global level. Medium sized smartphone manufactures were decimated long time ago in the global market by the few giants with their massive overwhelming marketing, distribution, legal team and brand power. If you're only focused (meaning rely) on selling smartphones, your company will easily shake when smartphone sale isn't good and vulnerable when your big competition uses multiple arms from multiple means to attack you.

3) Huawei has been forced to reinvent itself in fields far from consumer markets: software, autonomous driving, semiconductor manufacturing. If Huawei produces chips and AI systems instead of smartphones this can only be good for China. Maybe not for Huawei revenues, but looking at the global picture, revenues of a single company are not as important as the revenues and health of the total China high-tech sector.
Samsung, Apple and Google have been doing all different things in fields far from consumer markets all along without any being forced. So don't tell me it's a good thing to be forced. "chips and AI systems instead of smartphones"? No. Chips and AI systems are not separate things with smartphones. Do you not know that Apple, Google and Samsung use their own exclusive chips and AI systems in their smartphones/tablets/smartwatches/PCs/earphones/smart tags and all smart devices - exclusively available and optimized for their own products - and that's their huge advantage and differenciating factor (Samsung's Exynos isn't performing well lately though) and the news of car companies having their own autonomous driving?

Your theory for fragmentation of corporations into smaller pieces is the opposite of the current industry reality.
 
Last edited:

european_guy

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your theory for fragmentation of corporations into smaller pieces is the opposite of the current industry reality.

Thank you for taking your time to write such a long reply. I don't agree with most you said, but I don't want to start an (off-topic) argument point replying to every sentence I don't agree with.

I am very convinced that Huawei ban will yield more cons than pros for US and already it is because the almost "panic driven" speed up in localization that followed the ban was unheard of. Of course China had already wrote the 2025 plan for technology independence, but after Huawei ban, China, as a whole, really switched to "survivor mode".

I found your last sentence quite interesting. Actually fragmentation of corporations has always been the opposite of industry reality: if there is no active government involvement, if just hard market rules are followed, you end up with few super big, super powerful conglomerates and their cartels. This is what our economic history showed us many times and the reason why anti-trust laws have been developed and enforced along the last 2 centuries.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

european_guy

Junior Member
Registered Member
I am very convinced that Huawei ban will yield more cons than pros for US

I also made up my mind that the real reason for the banning is the power of Huawei in telecommunication equipment. Huawei was installing telecom nets across the world (including in western countries) and this was not tolerable by US for strategical reasons (they want to be the only ones to eavesdrop the wrold :) ). The smartphones just happend to be in the fire line.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Just look at Amazon. They started with a e-commerce website which is basically a store front. They then added 3rd party retailers. But they then mine the most commonly searched products and if a product is popular enough and can be sourced directly to the factory then they make their own "branded" product, order directly from the factory, and crash the original vendor's product.
Repeat this for long enough and you would basically end up with a facsimile of the Soviet economy with only a couple products being made.
 

Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
Just look at Amazon. They started with a e-commerce website which is basically a store front. They then added 3rd party retailers. But they then mine the most commonly searched products and if a product is popular enough and can be sourced directly to the factory then they make their own "branded" product, order directly from the factory, and crash the original vendor's product.
Repeat this for long enough and you would basically end up with a facsimile of the Soviet economy with only a couple products being made.
They have removed a number of Chinese electronics vendors. Most likely then are now making their own amazon branded products.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Haiyou!!!! The Chinese have a way for flowery words....lol. Just say it, the SMEE SSA800 is Certify!!!

The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious​

2022-03-27 09:36 HKT

Anyone who knows the chip industry knows that the lithography machine is a technical problem that has plagued the domestic semiconductor industry for many years. It is precisely because of the serious shortage of the quantity and quality of the lithography machine that domestic chips can't really move to the high-end level. However, with the continuous strengthening of domestic emphasis on independent research and development, domestic lithography machines have gradually ushered in a turning point, and foreign monopolies will no longer exist.
The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious

And just recently, according to media reports, the domestic 28nm lithography machine has come and the relevant certification has been completed. It is expected that the energy will be produced and officially put into use by the end of the year. So which manufacturer made this 28nm lithography machine? What does the debut of the domestic 28nm lithography machine mean?

Domestic 28nm lithography machine is coming​

First of all, we need to know that there is only one company that can independently produce lithography machines in China, and that is Shanghai Microelectronics, so this domestic 28nm lithography machine is undoubtedly from Shanghai Microelectronics.

The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious

Specifically, the 28nm lithography machine of Shanghai Microelectronics recently passed the technical inspection and certification, although it is still only DUV level, there is still a big gap compared with ASML's EUV lithography machine. But this is a great breakthrough for China. The 28nm lithography machine can meet the production requirements of most chips.
In addition to the current most advanced 7nm and 5nm chips, the DUV lithography machine is completely sufficient, so after Shanghai Microelectronics' 28nm lithography machine goes online, the degree of autonomy of domestic chips will definitely be further improved. And since the end of last year, major domestic foundries have been expanding production lines for mature craft chips such as 28nm, and 28nm lithography machines can naturally play an important role.
The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious


Many people may think that what is lacking in China is mainly advanced process chips, and the process technology below 28nm is not a problem. But as everyone knows, looking at the entire domestic semiconductor market, mature process chips such as 28nm are the most in demand. Aside from the mobile phone industry, these mid- and low-end processes are inseparable from other fields.
This is also one of the main reasons for those chip foundries to expand 28nm production capacity. They all determine supply through demand. Therefore, the debut of the domestic 28nm lithography machine is of great significance. It can help the country to establish a completely autonomous industrial chain, without relying on any foreign technology, and will not encounter problems such as supply cuts.

In addition, who said that 28nm lithography machine can not produce 7nm chips? Previously, TSMC had successfully achieved mass production of 7nm chips using DUV lithography machines through multiple exposure technology. We can follow the example of TSMC in China. Since we can't buy ASML EUV lithography machine, we might as well try it with DUV lithography machine. Maybe it really works.

The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious

Therefore, the 28nm lithography machine of Shanghai Microelectronics is more critical than people think. As the only domestic manufacturer that can make lithography machines, Shanghai Microelectronics did not disappoint people this time. Moreover, 28nm is not the limit of Shanghai Microelectronics. As long as it continues to develop steadily, greater breakthroughs will be made in China, and it is not impossible to develop EUV lithography machines.
The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious

Regarding this situation, the world's top lithography machine giant ASML did not expect it. It thought that without its own supply, our domestic lithography machine would continue to be in short supply, but it did not expect Shanghai Microelectronics to carry the banner. , Has injected new power into the domestic lithography machine.

In fact, ASML does not want to lose the Chinese market, but because of the influence of the United States, it can only choose to sit on the sidelines. For so many years, even an EUV lithography machine cannot be bought in China, which is the best proof. However, it now appears that China is not inseparable from ASML, Shanghai Microelectronics can completely replace it, and domestic lithography machines will rise smoothly.

TSMC should be anxious​

Not only that, after the domestic chip and lithography machine business frequently reported good news, TSMC should also be anxious, it did not expect the domestic progress to be so fast. There are three main reasons for this. As long as domestic chips develop, TSMC will become the biggest loser.


First of all, the first reason is that TSMC was originally the main foundry partner of Huawei in China. For more than ten years, it has been responsible for supplying chips for Huawei, and it has achieved a win-win result. However, what people did not expect was that TSMC abandoned Huawei and chose to join the United States as soon as the U.S. rules took effect.
Although TSMC is doing this for its own development, after all, its chip production line is inseparable from the technology of US companies. If it does not comply with US rules, it is likely to become the next "Huawei". However, from a domestic perspective, TSMC's actions are too fast. Huawei has been its partner for more than ten years. How can you give up and give up?

Therefore, after the Huawei incident, TSMC was unanimously disputed by the Chinese people. It is essentially a Chinese company, but it does not matter whether it is right or wrong, and it stands on the side of the United States. From the current point of view, the domestic market has begun to reject TSMC. After the full rise of domestic chips, TSMC will have no sense of existence, and its title of the world's first-generation factory will not play any role.
 
Last edited:

MortyandRick

Senior Member
Registered Member
Haiyou!!!! The Chinese have a way for flowery words....lol. Just say it, the SMEE SSA800 is Certify!!!

The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious​

2022-03-27 09:36 HKT

Anyone who knows the chip industry knows that the lithography machine is a technical problem that has plagued the domestic semiconductor industry for many years. It is precisely because of the serious shortage of the quantity and quality of the lithography machine that domestic chips can't really move to the high-end level. However, with the continuous strengthening of domestic emphasis on independent research and development, domestic lithography machines have gradually ushered in a turning point, and foreign monopolies will no longer exist.
The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious

And just recently, according to media reports, the domestic 28nm lithography machine has come and the relevant certification has been completed. It is expected that the energy will be produced and officially put into use by the end of the year. So which manufacturer made this 28nm lithography machine? What does the debut of the domestic 28nm lithography machine mean?

Domestic 28nm lithography machine is coming​

First of all, we need to know that there is only one company that can independently produce lithography machines in China, and that is Shanghai Microelectronics, so this domestic 28nm lithography machine is undoubtedly from Shanghai Microelectronics.

The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious

Specifically, the 28nm lithography machine of Shanghai Microelectronics recently passed the technical inspection and certification, although it is still only DUV level, there is still a big gap compared with ASML's EUV lithography machine. But this is a great breakthrough for China. The 28nm lithography machine can meet the production requirements of most chips.
In addition to the current most advanced 7nm and 5nm chips, the DUV lithography machine is completely sufficient, so after Shanghai Microelectronics' 28nm lithography machine goes online, the degree of autonomy of domestic chips will definitely be further improved. And since the end of last year, major domestic foundries have been expanding production lines for mature craft chips such as 28nm, and 28nm lithography machines can naturally play an important role.
The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious


Many people may think that what is lacking in China is mainly advanced process chips, and the process technology below 28nm is not a problem. But as everyone knows, looking at the entire domestic semiconductor market, mature process chips such as 28nm are the most in demand. Aside from the mobile phone industry, these mid- and low-end processes are inseparable from other fields.
This is also one of the main reasons for those chip foundries to expand 28nm production capacity. They all determine supply through demand. Therefore, the debut of the domestic 28nm lithography machine is of great significance. It can help the country to establish a completely autonomous industrial chain, without relying on any foreign technology, and will not encounter problems such as supply cuts.

In addition, who said that 28nm lithography machine can not produce 7nm chips? Previously, TSMC had successfully achieved mass production of 7nm chips using DUV lithography machines through multiple exposure technology. We can follow the example of TSMC in China. Since we can't buy ASML EUV lithography machine, we might as well try it with DUV lithography machine. Maybe it really works.

The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious

Therefore, the 28nm lithography machine of Shanghai Microelectronics is more critical than people think. As the only domestic manufacturer that can make lithography machines, Shanghai Microelectronics did not disappoint people this time. Moreover, 28nm is not the limit of Shanghai Microelectronics. As long as it continues to develop steadily, greater breakthroughs will be made in China, and it is not impossible to develop EUV lithography machines.
The first domestic 28nm lithography machine is here, and the relevant certification has been completed. TSMC should be anxious

Regarding this situation, the world's top lithography machine giant ASML did not expect it. It thought that without its own supply, our domestic lithography machine would continue to be in short supply, but it did not expect Shanghai Microelectronics to carry the banner. , Has injected new power into the domestic lithography machine.

In fact, ASML does not want to lose the Chinese market, but because of the influence of the United States, it can only choose to sit on the sidelines. For so many years, even an EUV lithography machine cannot be bought in China, which is the best proof. However, it now appears that China is not inseparable from ASML, Shanghai Microelectronics can completely replace it, and domestic lithography machines will rise smoothly.

TSMC should be anxious​

Not only that, after the domestic chip and lithography machine business frequently reported good news, TSMC should also be anxious, it did not expect the domestic progress to be so fast. There are three main reasons for this. As long as domestic chips develop, TSMC will become the biggest loser.


First of all, the first reason is that TSMC was originally the main foundry partner of Huawei in China. For more than ten years, it has been responsible for supplying chips for Huawei, and it has achieved a win-win result. However, what people did not expect was that TSMC abandoned Huawei and chose to join the United States as soon as the U.S. rules took effect.
Although TSMC is doing this for its own development, after all, its chip production line is inseparable from the technology of US companies. If it does not comply with US rules, it is likely to become the next "Huawei". However, from a domestic perspective, TSMC's actions are too fast. Huawei has been its partner for more than ten years. How can you give up and give up?

Therefore, after the Huawei incident, TSMC was unanimously disputed by the Chinese people. It is essentially a Chinese company, but it does not matter whether it is right or wrong, and it stands on the side of the United States. From the current point of view, the domestic market has begun to reject TSMC. After the full rise of domestic chips, TSMC will have no sense of existence, and its title of the world's first-generation factory will not play any role.
That’s crazy good news. Is that source reliable? Im not familiar with min.news
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
That’s crazy good news. Is that source reliable? Im not familiar with min.news
@MortyandRick bro me too, BUT so far IF you connect the dotted IT make sense. Like in PLA watching it always based on a rumor, then Bang! it surprises you....lol.

With these I afraid there will be a lull in this thread as we wait until 2025 for the emergence of a Chinese EUVL and I'm sad! The last couple of years had been great with ups and down like a roller coaster! Now we will just repeat what we discuss as project like DUVL, localized 14nm and 7nm production had come to fruition.

Ohhh!!! Before the appearance of an EUVL in 2024 or 2025, There is one more news that I'm keenly anticipate the introduction of the mythical SSA900 22NM DUVL. ;)
 
Last edited:

Rettam Stacf

Junior Member
Registered Member
@MortyandRick bro me too, BUT so far IF you connect the dotted IT make sense. Like in PLA watching it always based on a rumor, then Bang! it surprises you....lol.

With these I afraid there will be a lull in this thread as we wait until 2025 for the emergence of a Chinese EUVL and I'm sad! The last couple of years had been great with ups and down like a roller coaster! Now we will just repeat what we discuss as project like DUVL, localized 14nm and 7nm production had come to fruition.

Ohhh!!! Before the appearance of an EUVL in 2024 or 2025, There is one more news that I'm keenly anticipate the introduction of the mythical SSA900 22NM DUVL. ;)
Can you explain to a novice like me what "certified" mean in the original SSA800 article ? As in certified by SMIC for commercial production ?

Another milestone many of us would love to see will be an entire 28nm (and follow by 14nm) production line using all indigenous Chinese equipment being certified.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top