Chinese semiconductor industry

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tokenanalyst

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Tyler said:
This scmp article is just a detractor.
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I am getting tired of journalist and "analysts" talking garbage, that 7nm thing apart from being a marketing scheme, doesn't come from the lithography machine alone but from the fab process using multiple patterning techniques. My guess is most analysts think that if you have an ASML machine, BAM, you can make 7nm chips without any effort. Even with EUV, yes the chip may need less patterning but everything else is more complicated and expensive compared to immersion lithography, from the photo-resist to the mask. I don't think is you have an EUV machine and magically the fab is making 3nm chips.

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At the end the resolution of ASML Arfi machines are 38nm and the most recent EUV machine is 14nm. 38nm sounds a lot closer to 90nm than 7nm doesn't? But they don't tell you that doesn't? In fact i convinced that with good overlay that 90nm can do much lower resolution features without the need of an immersion system.
 
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caudaceus

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tokenanalyst said:
I am getting tired of journalist and "analysts" talking garbage, that 7nm thing apart from being a marketing scheme, doesn't come from the lithography machine alone but from the fab process using multiple patterning techniques. My guess is most analysts think that if you have an ASML machine, BAM, you can make 7nm chips without any effort. Even with EUV, yes the chip may need less patterning but everything else is more complicated and expensive compared to immersion lithography, from the photo-resist to the mask. I don't think is you have an EUV machine and magically the fab is making 3nm chips.

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At the end the resolution of ASML Arfi machines are 38nm and the most recent EUV machine is 14nm. 38nm sounds a lot closer to 90nm than 7nm doesn't? But they don't tell you that doesn't? In fact i convinced that with good overlay that 90nm can do much lower resolution features without the need of an immersion system.
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SCMP is good only for scoops from Zhongnanhai. Anything else that requires deep analysis are meh, they only parrot whatever their pundits are saying. Remember the legendary Minnie lol.
 
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WTAN

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gadgetcool5 said:
What information exactly is misleading?

The most disturbing thing in the report is how he points out that ASML PhD's have double the salary and much better benefits than SMEE's PhD's, and this is based on public job sites and comments on job boards, not the Equal Ocean Report. This could be solved if the Chinese government injected capital into SMEE or allowed SMEE to IPO to attract private capital. Since this seems so easy to solve, I don't see why it hasn't been done already. The most critical part of the semiconductor race will be human capital.

The second disturbing thing is that he claims that China's 90nm SMEE 600/2 machine from years ago is not "selling in relevant quantities." While this may be changing due to US export bans, it would be nice to see some concrete proof that sales of the machine and increasing and that it is being used by customers in volume. He also claims that this is a specialized machine for backend lithography. He does seem to think SMEE has developed a working prototype of a 28nm ArFi machine, but thinks that volume production will not be online until Beijing GuoWang's new plant is completed in 2023, followed by a year of integration which takes us to 2024. And even then, the product may not be commercially viable. In terms of commercially viable front end machines, he sees SMEE as "at least" 20 years behind ASML. Basically, China is able to prototype reasonably (only ~10 years behind) but the quality of its products are low so it never achieves commercialization. However, I still think this is due to the human capital issue mentioned in paragraph #1.
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The 90nm DUVL from SMEE has a major share of Advanced Packaging market in China.
Also recently a new 40W Krf Light Source was developed for the 600 Series DUVL which won many new orders.
The 90nm DUVL works well contrary to many foreign news reports.
The problem in China is that for many years the major FABS had a bias towards foreign DUVL, which meant SMEE could not break into the market for front end use and get its DUVL verified and improved.
Trump and Ron Vara changed everything in a flash and SMEE DUVL has now started to appear in FABS in China.
Guowang Optics is already producing its Optics in its current factory which is sufficient for serial production. Guowangs plant which will be completed in 2023 is really a vanity project and many companies in China like to build large impressive buildings.
I question the credentials of many of these foreign experts which make videos on You Tube.
They are constantly proven wrong.
 
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Weaasel

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Phead128 said:
I don't think EUV lithography is even that hard. Just takes time and money. A rinky dinky Netherlands and Taiwan and Korea can do it, only reason bigger players haven't is because high cost of entry and low economic return due to niche market. Now it's a national security issue, China will definitely achieve it. Just a matter of when. Just like those who doubted China can ever master atomic bomb, satellites, jet engines, etc...all wrong!
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Taiwan and Korea do not produce the DUV lithography machines. Their companies, TSMC and Samsung Electronics respectively, utilize them.
 
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ansy1968

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@WTAN Sir pretty much confirm Huawei Hisilicon 14nm 3D chiplet entering the market. From the video it will be produce next year, a highly optimistic schedule, but if the news of the Return of the King in 2023 is to be believed, then the claim seems plausible.

In recent days, Huawei Haisi chip is also another good news, that is, Huawei's own 14nm technology 5G chip has entered the engineering prototype testing stage, according to the current normal development progress, is expected to be installed in 5G mobile phones early next year at the earliest, and released on the market. This means that huawei haisi will also enter the "100% pure homebred chip" era, though only up to the 14 nm chip processing process, so in terms of chip performance, nature also cannot reach top qualcomm, mediatek chips performance level, but as we continue to conquer chip technology, once we successfully enter the high-end chip area, The United States is very likely to release restrictions, after all, we directly overcome the 28nm process chip technology, the United States has lifted the restrictions on such chip technology, trying to delay or even hinder the development of domestic chips through the relevant market impact, it can be said that this is the most beautiful and the most common set.

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ZeEa5KPul

ZeEa5KPul

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WTAN said:
The 90nm DUVL from SMEE has a major share of Advanced Packaging market in China.
Also recently a new 40W Krf Light Source was developed for the 600 Series DUVL which won many new orders.
The 90nm DUVL works well contrary to many foreign news reports.
The problem in China is that for many years the major FABS had a bias towards foreign DUVL, which meant SMEE could not break into the market for front end use and get its DUVL verified and improved.
Trump and Ron Vara changed everything in a flash and SMEE DUVL has now started to appear in FABS in China.
Guowang Optics is already producing its Optics in its current factory which is sufficient for serial production. Guowangs plant which will be completed in 2023 is really a vanity project and many companies in China like to build large impressive buildings.
I question the credentials of many of these foreign experts which make videos on You Tube.
They are constantly proven wrong.
Click to expand...
You've posted a fair bit of information about the state of the Chinese EUV light sources (both LPP and DPP). What's the state of EUV optics? I assume the same firm will be making both DUV and EUV optics. Also, it seems the DPP route has been abandoned and efforts focused on the LPP one, would you agree with that assessment?
 
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WTAN

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ZeEa5KPul said:
You've posted a fair bit of information about the state of the Chinese EUV light sources (both LPP and DPP). What's the state of EUV optics? I assume the same firm will be making both DUV and EUV optics. Also, it seems the DPP route has been abandoned and efforts focused on the LPP one, would you agree with that assessment?
Click to expand...

ZeEa5KPul said:
You've posted a fair bit of information about the state of the Chinese EUV light sources (both LPP and DPP). What's the state of EUV optics? I assume the same firm will be making both DUV and EUV optics. Also, it seems the DPP route has been abandoned and efforts focused on the LPP one, would you agree with that assessment?
Click to expand...
The Optics will be jointly developed by Changchun Institute and Shanghai Institute.
Changchun and Shanghai both own Guowang Optics.
Guowang Optics will be the manufacturer of both DUV and EUV Optics.
I believe the LPP Light source is the front runner in the race and the development is quite mature. The MOPA CO2 Drive Laser is being scaled up to achieve sufficient power output.
But there are some who are saying the DPP is still in the running.
We shall see what happens.
 
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WTAN

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Registered Member
ansy1968 said:
@WTAN Sir pretty much confirm Huawei Hisilicon 14nm 3D chiplet entering the market. From the video it will be produce next year, a highly optimistic schedule, but if the news of the Return of the King in 2023 is to be believed, then the claim seems plausible.

In recent days, Huawei Haisi chip is also another good news, that is, Huawei's own 14nm technology 5G chip has entered the engineering prototype testing stage, according to the current normal development progress, is expected to be installed in 5G mobile phones early next year at the earliest, and released on the market. This means that huawei haisi will also enter the "100% pure homebred chip" era, though only up to the 14 nm chip processing process, so in terms of chip performance, nature also cannot reach top qualcomm, mediatek chips performance level, but as we continue to conquer chip technology, once we successfully enter the high-end chip area, The United States is very likely to release restrictions, after all, we directly overcome the 28nm process chip technology, the United States has lifted the restrictions on such chip technology, trying to delay or even hinder the development of domestic chips through the relevant market impact, it can be said that this is the most beautiful and the most common set.

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Excellent news. This is Huawei speed.
2022/2023 will be a big year for Huawei.
It will produce its own Chips for its 5G Base Station and Mobile Phones.
 
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WTAN

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ZeEa5KPul said:
You've posted a fair bit of information about the state of the Chinese EUV light sources (both LPP and DPP). What's the state of EUV optics? I assume the same firm will be making both DUV and EUV optics. Also, it seems the DPP route has been abandoned and efforts focused on the LPP one, would you agree with that assessment?
Click to expand...
I believe that the Design of the Optics has been finalised by Changchun Institute.
Just waiting for the Precision Machine Tools to be made available for prototype manufacture.
 
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