Chinese semiconductor industry

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gelgoog

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Bltizo said:
Would 3D stacked 14nm chips be sufficiently competitive with the leading edge processes of 2022-23, or would it merely allow them to provide a midrange option?
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Midrange.

Bltizo said:
Because the way it is being described makes it sound like 3D stacking will be capable of competing with the leading edge processes of the era, which seems unlikely to me.
Additionally is there a reason why other companies cannot design and fabricate 3D stacked 5nm chips and downwards for the 2023 era and onwards?
I imagine 3D stacked 5nm would be significantly superior to 3D stacked 14nm.
Click to expand...

There are several kinds of chip stacking techniques. A lot of smartphones already stack together the CPU and NAND Flash into one package for example. People forget that the larger 14nm chips will have more power consumption per transistor. 14nm was barely adequate for the midrange a couple years back when Huawei fabbed some SoCs at SMIC, I don't know why people think it would be better next year or in two years when market leaders will have 4nm or 3nm.

Also, I think it is overly optimistic to think Huawei can make that fab work at high production rate in only 2-3 years. If they have to use a fully Chinese tool chain, that will also need to be validated and the tools will likely need to be optimized to work properly. It will require a lot of collaboration with the tool makers until it all runs smoothly. These reports about Huawei selling a license to their design to a Chinese state company which will then take care of farming out manufacturing by themselves only make me think the chance they will get their own production line operating has decreased, not the other way around.
 
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MortyandRick

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gelgoog said:
Midrange.



There are several kinds of chip stacking techniques. A lot of smartphones already stack together the CPU and NAND Flash into one package for example. People forget that the larger 14nm chips will have more power consumption per transistor. 14nm was barely adequate for the midrange a couple years back when Huawei fabbed some SoCs at SMIC, I don't know why people think it would be better next year or in two years when market leaders will have 4nm or 3nm.

Also, I think it is overly optimistic to think Huawei can make that fab work at high production rate in only 2-3 years. If they have to use a fully Chinese tool chain, that will also need to be validated and the tools will likely need to be optimized to work properly. It will require a lot of collaboration with the tool makers until it all runs smoothly. These reports about Huawei selling a license to their design to a Chinese state company which will then take care of farming out manufacturing by themselves only make me think the chance they will get their own production line operating has decreased, not the other way around.
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I suspect Huawei will come out with mid-range phones in 2023 but license out their more high end designs to other firms which can potentially get Google services and be sold internationally. It also gives Huawei some revenue to maintain their phone and hisilicon department until they can scale up and advance their production node. Giving them a safety net at least
 
coolieno99

coolieno99

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Orthan said:
I very much doubt that india would have bought S-400 from russia if it was only capable of shooting down US/NATO aircraft. What would be the point of buying them??? why would turkey buy them??
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Turkey would use it against Israeli F-16 and F-35. Indians would end up in the same situation as Iraq. Indian shot down their own helicopter during a raid against Pakistan couple years ago. There's speculation someone turned off the helicopter's IFF system

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WTAN

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Bltizo said:
Would 3D stacked 14nm chips be sufficiently competitive with the leading edge processes of 2022-23, or would it merely allow them to provide a midrange option?

Because the way it is being described makes it sound like 3D stacking will be capable of competing with the leading edge processes of the era, which seems unlikely to me.


Additionally is there a reason why other companies cannot design and fabricate 3D stacked 5nm chips and downwards for the 2023 era and onwards?
I imagine 3D stacked 5nm would be significantly superior to 3D stacked 14nm.
Click to expand...
From what i know Huawei intends for its 14nm 3D Stacked Chips to be comparable in performance to a regular 7nm Chip.
Of course such a fabrication process will result in size issues as well as excess heat generation.
They intend to overcome these issues of excess size through 3D Stacking and Heterogeneous Integration.
YMTC has sucessfully used 3D Stacking in producing its products and they have also developed X Tacking Technology which some are saying Huawei could License.
Recently as well a number of Chinese companies have developed Advanced Packaging Equipment which shows that they are serious in going down that path.
I suppose a Huawei SOC that is comparable to a regular 7nm SOC would make the Huawei Mobile Phone a Mid Range 5G Phone.
This product will allow Huawei to get back into the business of selling 5G Phones and to promote its Harmony OS locally and worldwide.

Huawei already has a 40nm FAB up and running which they intend to upgrade to 28nm and 20nm next year. So they have got the ball rolling and are serious about producing their own SOCs.
 
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ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
WTAN said:
From what i know Huawei intends for its 14nm 3D Stacked Chips to be comparable in performance to a regular 7nm Chip.
Of course such a fabrication process will result in size issues as well as excess heat generation.
They intend to overcome these issues of excess size through 3D Stacking and Heterogeneous Integration.
YMTC has sucessfully used 3D Stacking in producing its products and they have also developed X Tacking Technology which some are saying Huawei could License.
Recently as well a number of Chinese companies have developed Advanced Packaging Equipment which shows that they are serious in going down that path.
I suppose a Huawei SOC that is comparable to a regular 7nm SOC would make the Huawei Mobile Phone a Mid Range 5G Phone.
This product will allow Huawei to get back into the business of selling 5G Phones and to promote its Harmony OS locally and worldwide.

Huawei already has a 40nm FAB up and running which they intend to upgrade to 28nm and 20nm next year. So they have got the ball rolling and are serious about producing their own SOCs.
Click to expand...
@WTAN Sir they are confident. I never see Huawei boasted until the Return Of The King slogan. I'm speculating but that for me meant that they had a breakthrough. ;)
 
W

weig2000

Captain
Bltizo said:
Would 3D stacked 14nm chips be sufficiently competitive with the leading edge processes of 2022-23, or would it merely allow them to provide a midrange option?

Because the way it is being described makes it sound like 3D stacking will be capable of competing with the leading edge processes of the era, which seems unlikely to me.


Additionally is there a reason why other companies cannot design and fabricate 3D stacked 5nm chips and downwards for the 2023 era and onwards?
I imagine 3D stacked 5nm would be significantly superior to 3D stacked 14nm.
Click to expand...

What we all remember about Huawei smartphones were it was one of the premium brands, leaders in technology (its own Kirin chip, first to use 5nm process along with Apple), pioneer in smartphone camera, etc.

This 3D stacked 14nm, however, would not and would not be meant to get Huawei back to smartphone business where it left off. It's simply to get Huawei back to the game. Huawei still needs to be in the smartphone business, for its Harmony OS and its ecosystem as well as 5G. Hopefully, it would gradually get back to the leading position, but it would take time.
 
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tokenanalyst

Brigadier
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Xinhuazhang (X-EPIC) releases a variety of new products to create a comprehensive digital verification solution​


On November 24, 2021, EDA (Integrated Circuit Design Tool) intelligent software and system leader Xinhua Zhang officially released four digital verification EDA products with independent intellectual property rights, as well as a unified underlying framework of intelligent V verification platform, which is realizing multiple tools Collaboration and lowering the threshold of EDA use, while improving the overall verification efficiency of the chip, is an important milestone in China's independent research and development of integrated circuit industry ecology.
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X-Epic is trying to introduce cloud based digital design tools in China, they even released some tools as open source. I think Huawei invested in this company, no sure.
I hope they succeed because digital design is one of those areas that China needs a significant investment.
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