Chinese semiconductor industry

cbl21 said:

But hey, at least Huawei can still produce 5G base stations, just albeit at a lower rate.

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With the chips they have stockpiled from what I understand. They can also make them with off the shelf parts they can still purchase but at reduced performance.

China needs to have an independent semiconductor industry eventually or at least one that is capable enough it can't be blackmailed like this. Japan lost its chance in the 1990s when it had all the pieces in place only to lose the DRAM business to South Korea and never make a dent on the personal computer market. They could have at least made their own game console chips. But the last console that tried that was the Sega Saturn with the Hitachi chips. The Toshiba case is also an interesting one. Toshiba had a leading position in NAND Flash only to lose it because the rest of the company had a huge financial hole because of unaccounted losses in the construction business in their nuclear reactor division. Guess why? They bought Westinghouse from the US and they had a huge pile of debt hidden in their construction of nuclear facilities in the US, which to this day still haven't been built despite similar reactors in China being already operational, and had to sell it back to a US venture capital company for peanuts. I still wonder to this day how Toshiba got caught in this US scam.

The language used by Android is Java, but the end result is NOT compiled into java bytecode and run on a JVM.

WTAN said:

The Chinese Government can easily force them to supply SMIC for Pre-existing equipment or face being put on the Entitiy List, Fined or be kicked out of China.

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I dont think that will happen. The US control US tech and china doesnt have domestic alternatives.

Orthan said:

I dont think that will happen. The US control US tech and china doesnt have domestic alternatives.

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Eventually they will.

Orthan said:

I dont think that will happen. The US control US tech and china doesnt have domestic alternatives.

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The United States should relent on this issue.

Otherwise, the United States government is effectively barring American companies from the China market.

What happens next, is that these technologies will mature in China. Say, a couple of years or few years.

These Chinese developed technologies will be in competition with the American ones, the same ones that were barred. This competition is not constrained to China, it is going everywhere, especially to ASEAN, which has a free trade pact with China next month.

The United States is barring its own companies from the China market, then putting their own companies decidedly on the back foot in other markets of the future.

The only way that this will not happen, is that comrade Chang will be proven right after all. In America, comrade Chang is never wrong, if we judge his unending popularity on American TV such as the Clinton News Network and Faux News!

He's figured it out.

Orthan said:

I dont think that will happen. The US control US tech and china doesnt have domestic alternatives.

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US Companies will have to decide whether they want to supply SMIC with parts and supplies or be kicked out of the country.
The Chinese Govt can also make life hard for these companies by fining them large sums of money under consumer protection laws.
There are also alternative Lithographs and machinery that can be bought from Japanese and European companies who will be more willing to comply with Chinese Entity list laws and consumer protection laws.
But ultimately for US companies, once you are kicked out of China, you will be permanently banned.
Chinese made Semiconductor equipment can also replace foreign equipment and great progress is being made. They are now developing 14nm and even 7nm semiconductor machinery.

WTAN said:

US Companies will have to decide whether they want to supply SMIC with parts and supplies or be kicked out of the country.
The Chinese Govt can also make life hard for these companies by fining them large sums of money under consumer protection laws.
There are also alternative Lithographs and machinery that can be bought from Japanese and European companies who will be more willing to comply with Chinese Entity list laws and consumer protection laws.
But ultimately for US companies, once you are kicked out of China, you will be permanently banned.
Chinese made Semiconductor equipment can also replace foreign equipment and great progress is being made. They are now developing 14nm and even 7nm semiconductor machinery.

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You must know more than i do, but who are these european and japanese companies and can they replace the likes of KLA, lam research and applied materials? Dont they themselves use US tech? i know that ASML couldnt sell EUV to smic even though they are a dutch company, because they use US tech.

Also, what is a realistic estimative of china chip capability approaching the level of TSMC?

Orthan said:

You must know more than i do, but who are these european and japanese companies and can they replace the likes of KLA, lam research and applied materials? Dont they themselves use US tech? i know that ASML couldnt sell EUV to smic even though they are a dutch company, because they use US tech.

Also, what is a realistic estimative of china chip capability approaching the level of TSMC?

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btw, There is Tokyo Electron who has equipment in 6 of 10 processes used in semi line,, it also says sales are great in china. There is also 1-2 jp and kr co's, but dont remember their names

Recently a politburo member, Yang, went to SK to discuss semicon.. not sure what they talked about (alliances etc?)

Orthan said:

You must know more than i do, but who are these european and japanese companies and can they replace the likes of KLA, lam research and applied materials? Dont they themselves use US tech? i know that ASML couldnt sell EUV to smic even though they are a dutch company, because they use US tech.

Also, what is a realistic estimative of china chip capability approaching the level of TSMC?

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There are many companies around the world that manufacture General Semiconductor Equipment similar to that made by American companies like LAM, KLA TENCOR etc.

Even South Korea managed to build a De-Americanised production line for 7nm Chips recently.

With Chinas new Entity List laws it can basically kick out companies that take actions that disrupt production of Semiconductors by Chinese FABs.

So basically, if you want to sell equipment in China, you have to support the equipment or be banned from selling in China forever. Will Korean, Japanese or European companies take this risk? They will more likely ensure not a single American part is used in their machinery.

The only machinery that China lacks currently is the EUV Lithograph. This is being worked on by The Chinese Academy of Sciences in conjunction with Huawei and many local FABs.

The current DUV SMEE 28nm Lithograph should be good for 7nm and even possibly 5nm in the future.