Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

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gelgoog said:
No need. Canon and Nikon (Japan) make DUV immersion lithography machine tools which would likely not be under sanctions.
Those basically do that SMEE's lithograph that's expected to come out next year will do. But there are more tools than just the lithograph you need chip verification tools and bunch of other tools. Some of them are produced by Tokyo Electron but others might only be available or might only have top performance if they come from an US tool vendor. This is a production pipeline. You need loads of machine tools.

The problem is the EUV lithography tools and other things in the component chain and consumables like mask materials and other chemical products which China doesn't manufacture either. You would expect China, for example, to at least have a huge monocrystalline silicon production industry for all the wafers it uses for solar cells but AFAIK it doesn't and this is incredible. There is an industry for cutting the silicon ingots and recently a large capacity for polycrystalline silicon has been built in China. Polycrystaline silicon is used in cheap solar cells but can't be used for chips. You need monocrystaline silicon that's used in higher end solar cells. It's as simple as that. I won't even get into details of all the other chemicals involved in the chip production process which also aren't produced in China because frankly it's above me.
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Hi gelgoog,

Thanks for your prompt reply, The reason I ask that question, if SMEE had able to develop all the equipment necessary for local production of advance chip and China decided to apply an import substitute and ban import, will that force TSMC and Samsung to produce in China using sanction proof equipment (SMEE). The Dual Circulation economic plan and the 5 year tech investment really jive with made in China theme, the only problem is the FAB sector, It cant produce enough chips domestically.

In my opinion, the US will continue the tech war whoever win the presidency, The Chinese govt know that and is waiting for SMEE to finish its 28nm DUV and EUVL development. Remember China had'nt retaliated yet, they know their weakness, but in Biden the whole US establishment is on board full time unlike under Trump and they (Democrats) are internationalist and are more effective in persuading its allies for a collective action.
 
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ansy1968

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hullopilllw said:
Indeed, It means the Chinese consumer market will be a substantial engine of growth for both China's internal development(be it local tech sectors etc) and the external companies(no matter their goods being produced outside or in China). What China has is the time to work all her strategies out.

1. By maintaining healthy growth figure for the already competitive(by world standard) coastal provinces.
2. State investment to specifically eliminate poverty(not extreme poverty since those are mainly solved by 2020), especially so in the inland/Western side of China. Doing so will meant the start of unleashing the real untapped potential of China's consumer market.
3. Pushing on with the Land Silk Route of BRI to strengthen economic trade link with Eurasia through Chengdu and Xinjiang being crucial to Point No. 2
4. Ensure key nations participate in the development of initiatves under BRI is running smoothly, like Chongqing Initiative done with Singapore to further liberazte trade with South East Asia.
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HI hullopilllw,

If I may, can I add some more from you list

5. Appreciation of Yuan and make it more international

6. sell and stop buying any more US treasury note

7. Open up the chinese consumer market for foreign investment and competition

8. spread the develop to 3rd, 4th and 5th tier cities and let the private sector be a partner

9. start reforming the technical school for new incoming tech like EV, AI and others, to prepare a new crop of technician
 
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ansy1968

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Hi WTAN,

Who FAB their chips, SMIC?

from cnTechPost

Chinese chip maker Loongson says it has more than 1,000 partners
2020-10-11 11:45:07 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
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Chinese chip maker Loongson says it has more than 1,000 partners-cnTechPost

To date, Loongson Technology has more than 1,000 eco-partners, the Chinese chip maker said, adding that he Loongson Adaptation Alliance, which was set up in July this year, has attracted more than 50 tech giants.

Loongson is setting up adaptation centers across the country to provide services such as adaptation environment, construction solutions, technical support, talent training, adaptation experience and solution sharing, the company said in an article posted on its official
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account on Saturday.

Currently, Loongson has adaptation centers in more than 20 provinces, cities and autonomous regions nationwide.
In the past two years, Loongson said it has completed thousands of product mutual recognition with its partners.
In September this year, Loongson completed another 57 product adaptations with 34 vendors, spanning big data, cloud platforms, security, safety, storage, office and other fields.
 
free_6ix9ine

free_6ix9ine

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gelgoog said:
Don't expect Chinese GDP per capita to ever get near G8 nation levels if the US sanctions China. Nor is GDP per capita in USD that important of a metric. The US controls the USD so comparing against it on that metric is fruitless. If it's GDP in PPP then it makes more sense.
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What type of sanctions?
 
Gatekeeper

Gatekeeper

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gelgoog said:
Don't expect Chinese GDP per capita to ever get near G8 nation levels if the US sanctions China. Nor is GDP per capita in USD that important of a metric. The US controls the USD so comparing against it on that metric is fruitless. If it's GDP in PPP then it makes more sense.
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What on earth you're on about. G8 level? Well let's see G8 includes Russia. And the last time I checked. China is not far behind Russia's GDP per capita.

In geopolitik, it's not GDP per capita that counts. It's the raw might of the national GDP that gets the punching done. In particular PPP if most of your hardware are self produce like China. Whereas country like India GDP is more important due to the fact they have to purchase their hardware from abroad like the "game changing super duper Raffale. Lol
 
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ansy1968

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Gatekeeper said:
What on earth you're on about. G8 level? Well let's see G8 includes Russia. And the last time I checked. China is not far behind Russia's GDP per capita.

In geopolitik, it's not GDP per capita that counts. It's the raw might of the national GDP that gets the punching done. In particular PPP if most of your hardware are self produce like China. Whereas country like India GDP is more important due to the fact they have to purchase their hardware from abroad like the "game changing super duper Raffale. Lol
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Hi Gatekeeper,

For China the goal is all about their COMPHRENSIVE NATIONAL POWER.
 
free_6ix9ine

free_6ix9ine

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Gatekeeper said:
What on earth you're on about. G8 level? Well let's see G8 includes Russia. And the last time I checked. China is not far behind Russia's GDP per capita.

In geopolitik, it's not GDP per capita that counts. It's the raw might of the national GDP that gets the punching done. In particular PPP if most of your hardware are self produce like China. Whereas country like India GDP is more important due to the fact they have to purchase their hardware from abroad like the "game changing super duper Raffale. Lol
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I think he is referring to dual circulation. He does have a point in terms of boosting consumption, you need a high enough GDP per capita, that people have enough wealth to purchase the stuff we currently export to other countries. If those export markets are no longer available. China is solidly in a middle income category, which is still 10k gdp per capita. The US is around 70k while countries like Germany is 50k.

The main difference between China and a higher GDP per capita country like Germany. Is that Germany produces higher valued products and services. While China focuses on low valued products and services.

The main difficulty, is to increase GDP per capita you need to broadly increase the value of the products you produce. So its not just about building a chip fab or having one or two high valued companies, (although for a smaller country that could work). It's about boosting the value of products produced by SMEs and all types of companies across the country.

Then being able to distribute this value equally, then asking people not to save everything and actually spend. (third is particularly hard for China. People culturally only spend on essentials)
 
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Anlsvrthng

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vincent said:
OMG China, you should just surrender now!
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You really don't get the point.

If the USA restrict the trade/financial transfer with other country then the USA/other country exchange rate will collapse.

And this is only one tool.

So, if a country trade in dollar, save in dollar, buying financial instruments in dollar then she is controlled by the USA FED and government, and to overgrow the USA in this relation has the same chance like a slave getting richer than his/her master.

The USA dollar is the coordinate system, everything related to that, and the USA has the tool for coordinate transformations that they fit they need - everyone else just follow them since 1971.
 
vincent

vincent

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Moderator - World Affairs
Anlsvrthng said:
You really don't get the point.

If the USA restrict the trade/financial transfer with other country then the USA/other country exchange rate will collapse.

And this is only one tool.

So, if a country trade in dollar, save in dollar, buying financial instruments in dollar then she is controlled by the USA FED and government, and to overgrow the USA in this relation has the same chance like a slave getting richer than his/her master.

The USA dollar is the coordinate system, everything related to that, and the USA has the tool for coordinate transformations that they fit they need - everyone else just follow them since 1971.
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Sure, the Hegemon can stop China from using USD. Where can American’s get their underwear from? cellphones? Toiletries? Pots and pans? Furnitures? Pretty sure almost everything has some Chinese components in it. If China can’t use USD anymore, how long you think will take for everyone other than the Hegemon will come up with an alternative SWIFT to do business with each other?

Why you think the Hegemon is so freak out about Ant Financial and digital Yuan? People use dollar because of convenience, inertia and holder of value. Ant Financial and DCEP takes care of the first issue. As for the holder of value, with the Hegemon printing money like crazy, how long till people start to question the USD’s value?
 
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