Chinese semiconductor industry

manqiangrexue · Jun 7, 2020

free_6ix9ine said:
But we do know for a fact that Trump is really really bad, so it's probably worth the risk to give Biden a try.

No, not at all. Never rely on your enemy's mercy. Both Trump and Biden will do their best to stop Chinese tech development, but Biden is smarter than Trump and has more unifying power than Trump. Don't confuse loud/nasty with bad. It would be bad to have a competent American president who can unite the western powers and manage another wave of American tech innovation, not so much a foolish and loud American president tearing down American alliances while being ineffective and ugly to China (and everyone). The smiling tactful enemy is far deadlier than the angry screaming one.

One thing that makes me not care too much about the elections, however, is that both Biden and Trump seem pretty dumb for the gaffs they make (but Trump is far less intelligent for sure).

free_6ix9ine · Jun 7, 2020

manqiangrexue said:
No, not at all. Never rely on your enemy's mercy. Both Trump and Biden will do their best to stop Chinese tech development, but Biden is smarter than Trump and has more unifying power than Trump. Don't confuse loud/nasty with bad. It would be bad to have a competent American president who can unite the western powers and manage another wave of American tech innovation, not so much a foolish and loud American president tearing down American alliances while being ineffective and ugly to China (and everyone). The smiling tactful enemy is far deadlier than the angry screaming one.

One thing that makes me not care too much about the elections, however, is that both Biden and Trump seem pretty dumb for the gaffs they make, but Trump is far less intelligent for sure).

I see your point of view. Will Biden unite Europe and SK and Japan? Sure he probably will, but does that unity mean US allies go into full Cold War mode with China? Maybe, but most likely not, because it doesn't make sense from an economic or political point of view. US allies united against the Soviet Union because the Soviets had a very vocal foreign policy of world domination and also because sanctioning the Soviet Union had little cost for Europe or Japan, because there was no trade or commerce. As much as American fake news wants to paint China ad an aggressor wanting to dominate the world. I think most EU countries know that China isn't looking to do that and mostly is interested in trade than world dominance.

The only way that Europe or Japan will go into cold War with China is if the US wields a big stick and browbeat them into aligning with the US or suffer massive consequences like losing US defense guarantees. This is something Trump clearly is willing to push for.

If Bidens plan is to unite US allies, browbeating them into turning on China wouldn't be a smart move.

Shaolian · Jun 7, 2020

At this point in the relationship between China and America, I don't see any difference between Trump and Biden as far as to China's well-being is concerned.

Trump is, however, very bad for America's own national health. The only reason that I'll go out of my way to wish for a Biden presidency is because if I feel bad for the American citizens. Sometimes... sometimes... I do feel bad for the brutal way Trump has been treating America.

I don't really bother to go into the details of why I think Trump is bad for the US, as it's all open-source knowledge really.

manqiangrexue · Jun 7, 2020

free_6ix9ine said:
I see your point of view. Will Biden unite Europe and SK and Japan? Sure he probably will, but does that unity mean US allies go into full Cold War mode with China? Maybe, but most likely not, because it doesn't make sense from an economic or political point of view. US allies united against the Soviet Union because the Soviets had a very vocal foreign policy of world domination and also because sanctioning the Soviet Union had little cost for Europe or Japan, because there was no trade or commerce. As much as American fake news wants to paint China ad an aggressor wanting to dominate the world. I think most EU countries know that China isn't looking to do that and mostly is interested in trade than world dominance.

The only way that Europe or Japan will go into cold War with China is if the US wields a big stick and browbeat them into aligning with the US or suffer massive consequences like losing US defense guarantees. This is something Trump clearly is willing to push for.

If Bidens plan is to unite US allies, browbeating them into turning on China wouldn't be a smart move.

I don't think so. I think we've seen that when the US paints a picture of liberal democracies getting together to curtail China's "bad trade practices", Europe is on board, but when the US tries to forcefully submit Europe to its will, Europe fights back. It's undisputed that Obama had greater cooperation from the EU and the US had much better relations with the EU under Obama (and anyone really) than Trump. My whole point of Trump failing to unite traditional American allies is not that he can force them to do what he wants because functionally, that's unity. My whole point is that Europe and America fight far more than they cooperate when Trump is the POTUS and that's why I'm a Trump 2020 guy.

free_6ix9ine · Jun 8, 2020

manqiangrexue said:
I don't think so. I think we've seen that when the US paints a picture of liberal democracies getting together to curtail China's "bad trade practices", Europe is on board, but when the US tries to forcefully submit Europe to its will, Europe fights back. It's undisputed that Obama had greater cooperation from the EU and the US had much better relations with the EU under Obama (and anyone really) than Trump. My whole point of Trump failing to unite traditional American allies is not that he can force them to do what he wants because functionally, that's unity. My whole point is that Europe and America fight far more than they cooperate when Trump is the POTUS and that's why I'm a Trump 2020 guy.

See I agree with you that we will never be friends with the US,

but "curtailing" bad trade practices doesnt mean full on cold War where the US cuts off all technology to China and forces the EU to do the same or the US will withdraw military forces in Europe and leave the EU to the devices of putin.

Trust me, if push comes to shove, the EU will swallow their pride and submit to whatever Trump wanted them to. Because Russia is an existential threat to Europe. The EU is more or less a client state of the US, both militarily and economically. They really have no choice unless they develop an European defense Force or makes peace with Russia. Which politically is even more untenable than just surrendering to Trump and the US.

manqiangrexue · Jun 8, 2020

free_6ix9ine said:
See I agree with you that we will never be friends with the US,

but "curtailing" bad trade practices doesnt mean full on cold War where the US cuts off all technology to China and forces the EU to do the same or the US will withdraw military forces in Europe and leave the EU to the devices of putin.

Trust me, if push comes to shove, the EU will swallow their pride and submit to whatever Trump wanted them to. Because Russia is an existential threat to Europe. The EU is more or less a client state of the US, both militarily and economically. They really have no choice unless they develop an European defense Force or makes peace with Russia. Which politically is even more untenable than just surrendering to Trump and the US.

I'm sorry but "trust me" does not cut it in a debate.

So far, I'm seeing Europe fight Trump; I'm not seeing more cooperation under Trump. If what you said were true then Trump would have already brought push to shove because every day, the US bleeds valuable time in its attempts to contain a quickly rising China. You can't use your imagination/prediction on what will happen to counter the truth of that's actually happening.

free_6ix9ine · Jun 8, 2020

manqiangrexue said:
I'm sorry but "trust me" does not cut it in a debate.

So far, I'm seeing Europe fight Trump; I'm not seeing more cooperation under Trump. If what you said were true then Trump would have already brought push to shove because every day, the US bleeds valuable time in its attempts to contain a quickly rising China. You can't use your imagination/prediction on what will happen to counter the truth of that's actually happening.

How about Holland caving under pressure to ban ASML EUV?

What about all UKs 5G ban?

Trump hasnt pulled the trigger yet on the nuclear option which is NATO withdraw, mainly because Republicans aren't on board because it makes him look like a Russian puppet. But if he actually make good on that promise, the EU will surrender because they have no option.

SPOOPYSKELETON · Jun 8, 2020

AndrewS said:
If China has a hi-tech economy which is twice the size of the US, and potentially a military also twice the size, what would the US gain from having a tense relationship?

Do people actually think this? America is a country of religious fanatics. They are not here to trade, but to convert.

The weird rituals and affirmations of white guilt in the BLM protests are just the latest expression of Americas theocratic character. Millions of people who played no part in the original sin of black slavery nevertheless prostrate themselves before black people, begging for forgiveness. America is replacing the cross with the whip right before your eyes.

So long as China pursues its own civilizational ideals, America will be antagonistic. The temporarily boost in relations rested on the assumption that China would become more like America, that it would subordinate itself to the plan Washington laid out for it. Nobody in the Beltway believes that now.

Indeed, if China were both more successful and more ideologically independent, relations can only get worse, since successful heathens are the greatest form of blasphemy imaginable.

manqiangrexue · Jun 8, 2020

free_6ix9ine said:
How about Holland caving under pressure to ban ASML EUV?

That's actually why I said there is more combat than cooperation between the US and EU, not all combat and no cooperation. How about all the trade war fights?

free_6ix9ine said:
What about all UKs 5G ban?

The UK told the US to shove it before COVID-19. Today, there is still no UK 5G ban on Huawei, simply an urgency to use less Huawei within a few years.

free_6ix9ine said:
Trump hasnt pulled the trigger yet on the nuclear option which is NATO withdraw, mainly because Republicans aren't on board because it makes him look like a Russian puppet. But if he actually make good on that promise, the EU will surrender because they have no option.

That's your prediction. Russia is also in the game. They want the US out of NATO and know that tempering down the threats is a good idea when this is happening.

The bottom line is, it's still your prediction that Europe and the US will cooperate more under Trump than Biden, but it's fact that Europe and the US has cooperated less under Trump than any other US president. If you want to bring up individual times when Trump's pressure was successful in Europe, then you have to compare that to how many times American diplomacy was successful in Europe under Obama.

free_6ix9ine · Jun 8, 2020

SPOOPYSKELETON said:
Do people actually think this? America is a country of religious fanatics. They are not here to trade, but to convert.

The weird rituals and affirmations of white guilt in the BLM protests are just the latest expression of Americas theocratic character. Millions of people who played no part in the original sin of black slavery nevertheless prostrate themselves before black people, begging for forgiveness. America is replacing the cross with the whip right before your eyes.

So long as China pursues its own civilizational ideals, America will be antagonistic. The temporarily boost in relations rested on the assumption that China would become more like America, that it would subordinate itself to the plan Washington laid out for it. Nobody in the Beltway believes that now.

Indeed, if China were both more successful and more ideologically independent, relations can only get worse, since successful heathens are the greatest form of blasphemy imaginable.

I have sympathy for BLM because White invented systematic racism to oppress non-whites.

Chinese semiconductor industry

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member

Shaolian

Junior Member

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member

SPOOPYSKELETON

Junior Member

manqiangrexue

Brigadier

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member