Time to ban or fine some of their companies in China.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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The US tech war on China and getting vegetable english to stop sending TSMC chips to the mainland is the reason why i can't get a new gaming laptop, perhaps for years. All the available up to date computer parts are not available and given the price of BTC, will not even be available within reasonable prices for the foreseeable future.
Fuck Tsai and fuck the anglos for their race war against China.
Fuck Tsai and fuck the anglos for their race war against China.
Dont forget CIA made bitcoin
US pushes too hard one day TSMC will go poof altogether...
I have feeling its like the HK situation, or even the original Korean war... China is slow to act but once it finally does... well lets just say not being able to afford a graphics card will be the least of concerns in the US/West
In terms of analogy goes US has already or very soon will be crossing into yellow river.
Why is the issue that dire? China can manufacture up to 28nm. That's nowhere near 5nm but it's enough to carry everything except the latest supercomputers, PCs, and smartphones. By the end of this year 7nm production is up and running is it not? According to SMIC or whatever it was a few pages ago. 14nm is pretty much currently doable isn't it? Or are these for different types of chips? Wasn't there pages of news of this stuff in the last few months?
Why does TSCM need to go poof? Why is US crossing into yellow river? 5nm production access from TSMC is Taiwan's to restrict on the behest of the US. Frankly I'm surprised they didn't go total IC ban 20 years ago. It would have been much more effective then and even up to 5 or so years ago. Now China's only a generation behind and in fab tech, only missing EDA and extreme ultraviolet lithography. China's one of the closest to holding the entire ecosystem under its roof, except for the US who we can consider to basically control the five major players - Taiwan, Netherlands, Japan, Korea, and Germany. Why do you think losing some manufacturing lines means China must bomb TSMC and go about as if it has zero left to lose?
I think China has done immensely well in semiconductors since 2000. So well and so quickly (trailing second if not shoulder to shoulder with niche players who specialise in fab domain!) in fact that I suspect the field of semiconductors was certainly a priority to get proficient and competitive at as ordered by CCP plans. There are niche manufacturers of this tool and that machine in Germany, Netherlands, and Japan. TSMC manufactures better than anyone else on the planet. Netherlands has no 5nm tech... nothing. They have great lithography technology but that's like being able to build a wheel on a car so good, all the car makers come to them for the wheels. Now that wheels are banned for China, it's own wheels are good enough but not 1st place in the race good. That's now. China isn't behind these player individually because they hold fractions of the supply chain. China is involved in every domain of it and have only a few things left to become the same level as the leader in their respective field. The US is so threatened now by China's position in semiconductors that it's willing to disrupt the entire supply chain to hurt China, even if it hurts allies and itself - lost income, lower supply of chips, breakdown of trust between EU and US etc.
TSMC can transfer all the tech they want to the Americans. The Americans own Taiwan's ass so long as Taiwan needs to carry on this civil war with the ruling elites preferring to live as secondary vassal on the frontline even if it means handing everything they own to the Americans. This is the price of the tributory status of Taiwan under this dynamic. The Americans obviously want to disrupt China as much as they can but be VERY thankful to them that they waited this long to stop China from accessing the worlds best fabs and equipment. Prior to that, it would actually have forced China to more drastic measures because back twenty or so years ago, China was at 0 in IC fab.
0 to 1 is where China sucks. 1 to infinity is where it excels. Even back in 2015, China would have been considered a 0.5 in fab and pretty damn good at research and design. Right now, China's chip research, development, and design is shoulder to shoulder with the absolute best in the world - Japan, Taiwan, US, Korea. Literally second to none and LEADING many fields e.g. 5G chips. China's fab sucks compared only to the absolute best - Taiwan. It's only half a step to one full step behind the best. 7nm fab is PUBLICLY revealed as ready soon. China reveals little in fear of repercussion and drastic action from its enemy. If they're comfortable revealing they've got 7nm down pretty much, they may even be setting production up as we speak. 14/12nm is supposed to be already in production now. Various fab techs for 7nm are being funded with more attention than ever before. Probably even further - 5nm and 2nm R&D etc.
Even Taiwan buys lens from Japan/Germany and EUV machines from Netherlands. No one owns and controls the entire supply chain (well except US since it de facto controls all but China... Russia etc). Since China's only missing EUV (one solution to 7nm and beyond) and EPA tools, that's really much less a gap than it's being played out as here on this forum.
Sure the situation from the US is aggressive and this certainly disrupts China a lot. It's simply still so far from catastrophic some members here need to chill with the we need to attack Taiwan rhetoric and the CCP members and corporate leaders are traitors statements.
Without those corporate leaders and CCP members who insisted and allowed on buying foreign while building domestic abilities, China would not have made as much money from products and its products would not be as competitive. They also clearly HAVE BEEN working on domestic SC technologies otherwise China wouldn't be so capable and comprehensively capable at almost every single SC domain from design to manufacturing and all the small parts that allow this down to specific lens engineering and the bolts of the Chinese machinery used for DUV etc.
TSMC can transfer all the tech they want to the Americans. The Americans own Taiwan's ass so long as Taiwan needs to carry on this civil war with the ruling elites preferring to live as secondary vassal on the frontline even if it means handing everything they own to the Americans. This is the price of the tributory status of Taiwan under this dynamic. The Americans obviously want to disrupt China as much as they can but be VERY thankful to them that they waited this long to stop China from accessing the worlds best fabs and equipment. Prior to that, it would actually have forced China to more drastic measures because back twenty or so years ago, China was at 0 in IC fab.
0 to 1 is where China sucks. 1 to infinity is where it excels. Even back in 2015, China would have been considered a 0.5 in fab and pretty damn good at research and design. Right now, China's chip research, development, and design is shoulder to shoulder with the absolute best in the world - Japan, Taiwan, US, Korea. Literally second to none and LEADING many fields e.g. 5G chips. China's fab sucks compared only to the absolute best - Taiwan. It's only half a step to one full step behind the best. 7nm fab is PUBLICLY revealed as ready soon. China reveals little in fear of repercussion and drastic action from its enemy. If they're comfortable revealing they've got 7nm down pretty much, they may even be setting production up as we speak. 14/12nm is supposed to be already in production now. Various fab techs for 7nm are being funded with more attention than ever before. Probably even further - 5nm and 2nm R&D etc.
Even Taiwan buys lens from Japan/Germany and EUV machines from Netherlands. No one owns and controls the entire supply chain (well except US since it de facto controls all but China... Russia etc). Since China's only missing EUV (one solution to 7nm and beyond) and EPA tools, that's really much less a gap than it's being played out as here on this forum.
Sure the situation from the US is aggressive and this certainly disrupts China a lot. It's simply still so far from catastrophic some members here need to chill with the we need to attack Taiwan rhetoric and the CCP members and corporate leaders are traitors statements.
Without those corporate leaders and CCP members who insisted and allowed on buying foreign while building domestic abilities, China would not have made as much money from products and its products would not be as competitive. They also clearly HAVE BEEN working on domestic SC technologies otherwise China wouldn't be so capable and comprehensively capable at almost every single SC domain from design to manufacturing and all the small parts that allow this down to specific lens engineering and the bolts of the Chinese machinery used for DUV etc.
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You make good points but remember it was the US who started the whole "since we cannot win on merits of competition we need to kneecap China to slow them down" and its part of US figurative "scorth earth policy" to get ahead or at least close the gap of China's ascenion trajectory by undermining instead of positivistic competition...
This is not about retaliation for China... just like if US nuke China, should China turn the other cheek? No, a second strike is all about bringing the attack infrastructure down to your level so you stand a chance to rebuild faster than your attacker and still come out ahead long term...
US depriving China of chips kneecaps Chinese companies and products and markets with huge cumulative effects.... now this money flow to Apple, Tesla other western companies to further compound and perpetuate their r&d cycle...
Something like a rare earth ban and/or knocking out TSMC are equitable defenses against the vollies and opening salvos first fired by US against China... its actually a very measured response in the grand scheme of things... if you let the enemy get away with this kind of cheating they will just keep doing it since its all win and no reprecussion for them.
Thats all good and nice however Chinese Chip imports are increasing. China can brag all it wants but the data dont lie
I will wait for the next 2 years. If in 2 years chips imports continue to increase then that would be an issue.
I think China is making progress, but they are too slow on constructing foundries (even older processes)
So they are stockpiling because they dont have domestic production.
I will wait for the next 2 years. If in 2 years chips imports continue to increase then that would be an issue.
I think China is making progress, but they are too slow on constructing foundries (even older processes)
To be fair, TSMC has no choice. It is a horizontally integrated company without any chip design or fab equipment of its own. It is a contract manufacturer for American chip designers like Apple, Qualcomm, Broadcom, Nvidia, Marvell and AMD. These companies make the majority of its revenue. It uses equipment from Lam, AP and KLA-Tencor who are all American corporations. Fabs and fab equipment are useless without chips to manufacture. So I don't blame the TSMC much and I also don't view the Chinese fabless companies as useless.
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