Chinese semiconductor industry

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zbb

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gelgoog said:
157nm is not ArF laser. It is F2 laser. F2 (157nm) was considered to be used as a replacement for ArF (197nm) at one point. But then ArF immersion lithography was invented and commercialized. It was much cheaper to develop than F2. Water immersion allowed the exposure of finer details than what you could get just with lenses. So eventually F2 got cancelled and future technology efforts by the industry were focused on EUV (13.5nm). IIRC the problem they had with F2 is they could not develop lenses for it that worked properly for a long time. Then they had problems with the mask pellicles lasting long enough. I think these got solved eventually but by the time they did, immersion ArF lithography could already produce at the details you could with dry F2. Immersion ArF required no substantially new laser or lens technology.
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Is it possible to use immersion with F2 laser? That should still be an improvement over immersion ArF, right?
 
BoraTas

BoraTas

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zbb said:
Is it possible to use immersion with F2 laser? That should still be an improvement over immersion ArF, right?
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Well, no. At least not with water. Water is an insanely good absorber of UV below 200 nm wavelength. Water's absorption coefficient for 157 nm light is more than a million times greater compared to its absorption coefficient for 193 nm. 157 nm is also absorbed by air too so it needs vacuum and purge mechanisms just like EUV.


water absorpiton.png
 
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Oldschool

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Good, TSMC worrying US and EU fab expansion would create overcapacity and one can make little money. Put squeeze on everyone in western market . That would the start of decline of TSMC and Samsung. That would be ideal.

TSMC doesn't think from others perspective. Others do it for security. Can't expect everyone put all their eggs into TSMC

China should forbids Chinese companies from using TSMC at 28nm and above.

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ansy1968

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Oldschool said:
Good, TSMC worrying US and EU fab expansion would create overcapacity and one can make little money. Put squeeze on everyone in western market . That would the start of decline of TSMC and Samsung. That would be ideal.

TSMC doesn't think from others perspective. Others do it for security. Can't expect everyone put all their eggs into TSMC

China should forbids Chinese companies from using TSMC at 28nm and above.

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@Oldschool I don't get it , if they are concern, why build one in Arizona? maybe they didn't expect that Intel will be building a new FABS beside them? or the American just outright lie about their intention? well all I can say is stupid is as stupid does.
 
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Oldschool

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ansy1968 said:
@Oldschool I don't get it , if they are concern, why build one in Arizona? maybe they didn't expect that Intel will be building a new FABS beside them? or the American just outright lie about their intention? well all I can say is stupid is as stupid does.
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they are being forced or pressured by US government to build the fab and share the know how. They are just puppets.
They are much more stingy toward mainland But they can't say No to US.
 
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ansy1968

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Oldschool said:
they are being forced or pressured by US government to build the fab and share the know how. They are just puppets.
They are much more stingy toward mainland But they can't say No to US.
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@Oldschool I don't begrudge them, It forces China to innovate and become self sufficient. The American is in for instant gratification either thru monetary if not thru force or threat, that in the long term may have disastrous effect on their competitiveness.
 
Xizor

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ansy1968 said:
@Oldschool I don't begrudge them, It forces China to innovate and become self sufficient. The American is in for instant gratification either thru monetary if not thru force or threat, that in the long term may have disastrous effect on their competitiveness.
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It is to be seen how "instant" the gratification is.
Do US have an oversupply of competent engineers to operate these fabs?
Certainly, they are going to create attractive VISA and green cards for foreign engineers - Indians and other Asians.

But then who wants to stay and work in Arizona? There is Las Vegas over the border but that's it. Are they going to be shuttled in by special Airlines like the personnel of Area51?
California is certainly very popular yet pricey.

The US would've really enjoyed better results if they concentrated their fab somewhere around Oregon/Washington (Seattle) or around Great Lakes. Most Asians like those regions as it isn't a desert.

I can see where all this goes.
Harold and Kumar - Las Vegas Adventure (4th installment)!!!
 
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Oldschool

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ansy1968 said:
@Oldschool I don't begrudge them, It forces China to innovate and become self sufficient. The American is in for instant gratification either thru monetary if not thru force or threat, that in the long term may have disastrous effect on their competitiveness.
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The sooner TSMC failed the better. Their engineers can work at mainland like liang
 
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