Chinese semiconductor industry

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Nutrient

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localizer said:
I mean why even import? the current trend seems to be building HQs and research centers in the respective countries

this is better for building relations with ASEAN
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No reason China can't do both: build up the institutions that allow the talent to remain in their countries, and also import some ability. In any case, gadgetcool is wrong to imply that the US's ability to import talent will remain a permanent advantage.
 
quantumlight

quantumlight

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horse said:
That is the funniest thing anyone from China has done in recent years.

Ren Zhengfei comes to your house to do the reverse brain drain.

Ever since that story was published in the Globe And Mail, Canada's national newspaper, it seems to me the anti-China feelings kicked up in the usually polite Canadians.

According to the law and property rights, Huawei owns those IP that was done by Canadians working in a Huawei facility in Canada.

Canadian research into 5G goes straight to Huawei, a company the Canadian government could soon ban. As the white people say, this is awkward.

:D
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Right as China overtook the US in terms of global world trade the Rules Based system goes out the Amerikkkan window and US throws WTO under the bus

Same way, now China overtake US in patents, watch America start stealing Chinese IP under the guise of invalidating companies right to patents under US entity list Act. Marco and Cotton already propose legislation so Verizon can steal Huawei patents

All the American values, principles, freedoms, it was always lip service propaganda in the furtherance of hegemony. Once these things no longer net serve US hegemony they are tossed aside like used condoms.
 
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mderfox

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quantumlight said:
Right as China overtook the US in terms of global world trade the Rules Based system goes out the Amerikkkan window and US throws WTO under the bus

Same way, now China overtake US in patents, watch America start stealing Chinese IP under the guise of invalidating companies right to patents under US entity list Act. Marco and Cotton already propose legislation so Verizon can steal Huawei patents

All the American values, principles, freedoms, it was always lip service propaganda in the furtherance of hegemony. Once these things no longer net serve US hegemony they are tossed aside like used condoms.
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Its gonna end IP protection for both side. China also have their entity's list. They can also put American company on entity's list.

If follow US logic, many US semiconductor and aerospace companies working with US military and federal agency. If China mirror US logic all this semiconductor will be in entity's list. Free to steal their IP.

I think whoever's put suggest this law on US side is totally idiot. It will put US at disadvantage.

Its better company steal technology and go to court and delay tactics. This way only affected is company not country.
 
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Oldschool

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WTAN said:
According to a SMEE Source the 28nm SMEE DUVL is equivalent to the ASML NXT1980i. This 1980i is currently used in the SMIC 14Nnm FAB.
The insider said the current version SMEE 28nm DUVL is designed to produce Chips at the 28nm Node but it should be able to produce 14nm Chips.
The FABS using the DUVL will be the ones who will find out if it can do 14nm.
It really depends mainly on the Overlay Accuracy of the machine.
SMEE will improve the overlay accuracy of the machine gradually using feedback from the FABS that are operating the DUVL.
The ASML NXT1980i (14nm-28nm) came out in 2015 and the NXT2000i (5nm-7nm) came out in 2018, so basically a 2year difference.
I would expect the SMEE DUVL to have the same timeline as the ASML DUVL in terms of performance improvement.
But remember that this is China and SMEE might move faster if the customer has greater demands due to the current sanctions.
Yes.......the EUVL will be coming in 2025 and will allow China to FAB 5nm Chips. This news is driving alot of Anxiety among the American Politicians. If China gets the EUVL, then their Tech Policies on China has failed.
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SMEE comes out with 28nm DUV this year, what's ASML gonna sell in China? Not only EUV , NXT2000i also not selling to Chinese companies. It made conflicting statement of any DUV equipment doesn't required permission by US. And new tax of 100% levied on ASML by Chinese government
Is ASML about to be done inside China?
 
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10thman

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There are comments by dagger906 in the links below.
Added his comments in quotes.
Not sure how accurate are they.

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The whole reason for N+1 is to bypass ASML's EUV lithography machine. N+1 is in fact slightly inferior to true 7nm process (which requires EUVL), in both performance and power consumption, it's closer to 8nm than of standard 7nm. Why pour time and resources into developing N+1 then?

One obvious reason is to bypass ASML's monopoly on EUVL, in case US pressures them to not sell. But that doesn't explain the fact that SMIC started developing N+1 prior to Huawei ban.

The original, and far more important reason is cost and scalability. EUVL machines are huge, and hugely expensive. Each one needs to have its own crane on site just to be serviced. And servicing equipment fills up an entire building, requires a horde of specialized engineers. This makes wafers produced by it hugely expensive, but also acts as a bottleneck for production volume. Each fab is limited by the number of EUVL machines they can afford to buy and use.

Keep in mind that SMIC actually acquired an EUVL machine in 2018, but did not use it to produce 7nm chips. It was sitting there for "research purposes." (wink, lol) Why didn't they stop bothering with N+1 and just use that machine? Here's why:

By being able to bypass EUVL with N+1, SMIC is able to produce chips that are still slightly inferior to true 7nm, but can be produced at 14nm costs, and without quantity limit or the huge initial investment necessary for buying additional EUVL machines. Google the price gap between 14nm and 7nm, and you'll see. In other words, they will be able to flood the market with chips at a fraction of the price, in quantities that can expand without limits. Standard chips larger than 7nm will have no market. The reason TSMC and other fabs are so desperate in reaching ever smaller processes, is they need to stay ahead of the wave - for example, once SMIC further develops N+1 to reach, or even just come close to 5nm specs, that market segment is done for.

Herein ends your free education. To verify the above, or to learn more, Google is your friend. Like it or not, the Chinese are taking over the fab industry, like they did with many other industries over the years. They will do it by flooding the market with cabbage price chips. History repeats. I can't say it's not a good thing for us consumers though.
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SMIC already bypassed ASML's EUVL machine monopoly via their N+1 process for 7nm chips. Normal 7nm process chips require ASML's EUVL, N+1 does not. That's why the article says 5nm instead of 7nm. It's too late to affect N+1, but not N+2.

Btw, N+1 is actually inferior to true 7nm, its performance is closer to 8nm than 7nm. The advantage of it is it doesn't require ASML's hugely expensive and difficult to maintain EUVL machines. It renders them immune from US chokehold on ASML's supply, while vastly lowering cost by bypassing the most expensive bottleneck for other fabs. SMIC will be able to produce 7nm via N+1 (which is actually inferior to true 7nm) at close to 14nm prices. Any western client company affected by our sanctions will end up having to use far more expensive normal 7nm chips, while their Chinese competitors gain an advantage. The next step, N+2, is also expected to be slightly inferior to true 5nm, but also far cheaper.
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WTAN

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foofy said:
28nm immersion scanner can do 7nm with quad patterning, with improve accuracy.
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Yes.....i believe if the FABs with the SMEE 28nm Scanner used Quad Patterning (more cost involved) and cooperated with SMIC on improving the machine, they can probably reach 7nm.
Thats why some Semiconductor Analysts say that SMIC can use its NXT1980i to poduce its new N+1 Chips probably using some Quad Patterning as well.
In fact its existing 14nm Production line, with some modifications can be used to produce its N+1 Chips.
 
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