Chinese semiconductor industry

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latenlazy

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Indeed, it's more complicated than just simple shrink to obtain the best Power & Performance. Feature size, capacitance, supply voltage, threshold voltage, Gate width, Gate length, etc. all contribute to Power. But in general, smaller feature sizes has a significant influence on the final performance & power consumption, smaller gate width lead to lower threshold voltage and thus lead to lower leakage and thus lower power cosumption.

more than happy to discuss everything in more detail, for example, on why tsmc actually relaxed M1 CD features relative to CPP going from 7nm to 7nm+. What I provided is a general comparison for general consumption for those not intimatly familiar with ins-and-outs of semiconductor design and fabrication.
I’m well aware of the kinds of reasons that can lead to decisions like relaxing cell densities or other feature sizes, spacing parameters, etc. Yield, manufacturability, and transistor performance all present constraints you need to optimize for at those smaller node scales. Sometimes relaxing some dimensional constraints improves transistor performance so it’s not a complete positive correlation. This is why actually addressing the physics and not just the measurement matters for assessment.

With that said, actual PPA testing of 7nm, 7nm+, 5nm, 3nm do have the same correlation where the smaller nodes with smaller features have better PPACt performance. And since SMIC basically literally have suspiciously similar process to tsmc, you can assume if it has similar feature dimension it will perform relatively similar to the tsmc one.
Employing “similar process” does not necessarily mean the details around transistor designs and features will be comparable. For example it’s entirely possible SMIC chose to relax certain feature spacings and sizes to preserve better transitor performance and manufacturability based on specifics of their transistor design or manufacturability limits (likely some combination of both).

Not sure what semiconductor segment you work in, but from a fab process capability standpoint, there is a freakin reason why we track CPP, MMP, cell area, etc.. It's like I said, a general first step of benchmarking that could be done purely on paper. Then subsequent comparison would be to perform actual testing on the actual chip to benchmark PP portion of PPACt. TechInsight does the exact same evaluation, so don't understand what your objection to this methodology is.
I am not saying that there isn’t a reason to track those specific feature dimensions. I am just saying those aren’t the only factors that will shape performance. It is worthwhile imo to not discard the actual transistor performance itself when trying to assess transistor performance since transistors are not only their dimensional measurements.


If you have data to show larger CPP, M2 transistor have better PPACt do share that data.. Better yet, since you object to the general benchmarking methodology I shared, why don't you show proof that SMIC N+2 with similar feature size to tsmc 7+nm could outperform tsmc 5nm with smaller features or if PPACt performance of nodes with larger featuers would outperform one with smaller featuers?
I don’t have data per say but I seem to recall that 1) you were very adamant a few years ago arguing that Intel 7, even though it was still “10 nm” should be counted as comparable to TSMC 7 nm based in part on transistor performance, 2) we know some of Samsung’s recent node shrinks (I recall their 5 nm process but also their 3 nm process) have had performance issues despite more aggressive feature shrinking than TSMC.

I don’t expect N+2 to have comparable performance to TSMC 5 nm, but that is not what I’m arguing here. I’m simply pointing out that reducing everything to feature sizes is not the whole picture. It is a tad more complicated than that and I don’t think that should be obfuscated or hand waved at if you want to be serious about comparative assessment.
so where is this SSA800 being tested?

why do i have a feeling perhaps 'the street' is confused with testing of SMEE's iline system and confused it to be an immersion system?
If there wasn’t an immersion system we wouldn’t be seeing orders for immersion control equipment.
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
Clues

1) some Chinese company bought a lot of second hand DUVi

2) Huawei had sign a MOU with ICRD

3) ICRD sign a MOU with ASML which ICRD received a NXT 1980i for R&D

4) from @siegecrossbow previous post that Huawei had received 2 second hand NXT1980i

5) the mysterious FAB in Qingdao and PXW in Shenzhen?

If we connect the dots there is a possibility that Huawei do FAB its chip with collaboration with SMIC and ICRD.
But all that happened pretty recently right? What @tphuang is saying is not contradictory all of that, he's saying that it's too soon for Huawei to be mass producing 7nm chips.
 

tphuang

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10 billion seems too low an investment for a project of such scale.
of course, the entire story is nonsense. SMSC phase 1 estimated $9B capex for 35k wpm. 10B RMB doesn't get you in the door for 7nm

Part of it is chip design, another part is the advancement in peripheral components (RF, screen, power management etc.), in software, and in overall system integration which could be quite significant in saving power. SoC is just part of the story. That's why you see the 9000s losing to the 9000 in pure CPU/GPU efficiency tests, but in real world usage it can surpass the Mate 40 pro and catch up with recent flagship phones.

Just like J-20 with an older engine will still beat J-10 with the most advanced version of WS-10 (okay maybe a bit exaggerated with this metaphor).
well, it also helps to have a faster & more lightweight OS, which I presume is a major harmony advantage over Android. There are certain advantages to doing everything in house that Apple always had and HW will have now. Of course, harmony started really late, so there is enough non-Chinese apps. That's a problem.

Mate 60 just needs to be as fast as its competition in app usage and games. I have not seen any evidence where it's not competitive. Even for games. And as game developers tune their games to HarmonyOS & Maleeon GPU gets improved, this will only get better.

Pure power consumption number is for geeks like us. Most people just want their phones to not overheat or be drained of battery too soon. Even power consumption wise, it seems fine enough to me. I was expecting worse than this originally.

Put it this way, could I tell if my phone on average uses 10% more power than another phone? Not really.

But all that happened pretty recently right? What @tphuang is saying is not contradictory all of that, he's saying that it's too soon for Huawei to be mass producing 7nm chips.
I also don't think this is something Huawei needs to get into. Huawei alredy has 3 fabs under construction. None of which have started production. Give them sometimes. Too many people are giving Huawei too much unnecessary expectations.
 

tokenanalyst

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of course, the entire story is nonsense. SMSC phase 1 estimated $9B capex for 35k wpm. 10B RMB doesn't get you in the door for 7nm


well, it also helps to have a faster & more lightweight OS, which I presume is a major harmony advantage over Android. There are certain advantages to doing everything in house that Apple always had and HW will have now. Of course, harmony started really late, so there is enough non-Chinese apps. That's a problem.

Mate 60 just needs to be as fast as its competition in app usage and games. I have not seen any evidence where it's not competitive. Even for games. And as game developers tune their games to HarmonyOS & Maleeon GPU gets improved, this will only get better.

Pure power consumption number is for geeks like us. Most people just want their phones to not overheat or be drained of battery too soon. Even power consumption wise, it seems fine enough to me. I was expecting worse than this originally.

Put it this way, could I tell if my phone on average uses 10% more power than another phone? Not really.


I also don't think this is something Huawei needs to get into. Huawei alredy has 3 fabs under construction. None of which have started production. Give them sometimes. Too many people are giving Huawei too much unnecessary expectations.
I think Huawei Semiconductor would be more focus on, mature chips, power chips, RF, photonics, advance packaging, mems and specialty chips. Products that they want high differentiation and high QC.
 

horse

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Is there Micron in it? I don't think so. In all the teardown videos I have seen Storage and RAM chip are both from SK Hynix.

I know I read that somewhere, but that could have fake, lol, now you bring it up.

That was what I understood, there was Hynix memory chip, and nothing American inside the phone. Then later reports I read said there was Mircon.

Guess I feel for it, the disinformation. LOL.

:D
 

tphuang

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I think Huawei Semiconductor would be more focus on, mature chips, power chips, RF, photonics, advance packaging, mems and specialty chips. Products that they want high differentiation and high QC.
yep, all chips that really matter, but nobody seems to want to care about. Also, I'm would like to see what comes out of Swaysure, because CXMT is so slow. But maybe I need to pin my hope on YMTC.

People don't appreciate it, but MEMS is so important. Same with power chips and control chips

I do think Huawei will focus on 28 to 40nm and maybe get to 14nm in a couple of years. If it does that, it can produce all the chips it needs, including wearable SoCs and flat screen SoCs.

it's greatest contribution to China's semiconductor industry is by helping SMIC develop it's Finfet process and helping it to integrate with domestic equipments. As @latenlazy, HW & SMIC probably worked really close here so the end product is like the best compromise they can find out of performance, yield & power consumption given their current technology level. Part of that I assume is having smaller cache. Presumably, larger cache would result in a lower yield process
 

horse

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Exactly what comrade tphuang is saying.

With this Mate 60 Pro, and what was inside it and this consumer product is in mass production, there is only one conclusion.

China integrated circuits industry has achieved independence from the world IC industry.

What China has not done yet, is get to the cutting edge of the most advanced chips with the EUV, and China has not fully completed localizing everything. With the mature nodes, China is already a big player.

As of today, Chinese IC on the road to clear independence in IC.

Before, China could not do that. Chinese phone companies still have to buy their chips from TSMC. Today is a new day.

Hence, all the talk about capacity. No capacity means no independence.

What is stunning, is that it was Biden who sanctioned the entire industry, and Biden is still in office in his first term.

:D
 

tphuang

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so important supplier notes from this bloomberg story due to Techinsights
The phone has a radio frequency front-end module from
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and a satellite communications modem from
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Its RF transceiver is by Guangzhou Runxin Information Technology Co., the analysis showed.
These unheralded companies contributed to assembling a device that relies on little tech from overseas: the teardown has so far identified only
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’s memory as a component of foreign origin, although not all of the parts have been scrutinized yet, including the display.
Before its blacklisting, Huawei relied on American suppliers, from
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to
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, for the most essential communications chips.

So I think onmicro cooperation with Huawei has been known in the past, but supplier list thus far have been limited to mentioning Vanchip & Maxscend with Sanan as the foundry for RF stuff. It's quite possible that Huawei is working with onmicro also based on this mention here. One problem with OnMicro is that its PAs are fabbed by Taiwanese foundry Winfoundry & Wavetek. So I'm not sure if that has changed

the other interesting part is that onmicro was previous known as huntersun (汉天下) and @tonyget pointed out to me a month ago that 汉天下 has been supplying BAW filter since 2021. So it may very well be the case their filters have gotten good enough now to be used in Hisilicon power modules or they are making their own power modules. Interesting things to keep examining.

Other notable part are Hwa Create with satcom modem and Runxin with RF transceiver. Both will be very important going forward given the rising role of satcom chips in phones.
 

siegecrossbow

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so important supplier notes from this bloomberg story due to Techinsights




So I think onmicro cooperation with Huawei has been known in the past, but supplier list thus far have been limited to mentioning Vanchip & Maxscend with Sanan as the foundry for RF stuff. It's quite possible that Huawei is working with onmicro also based on this mention here. One problem with OnMicro is that its PAs are fabbed by Taiwanese foundry Winfoundry & Wavetek. So I'm not sure if that has changed

the other interesting part is that onmicro was previous known as huntersun (汉天下) and @tonyget pointed out to me a month ago that 汉天下 has been supplying BAW filter since 2021. So it may very well be the case their filters have gotten good enough now to be used in Hisilicon power modules or they are making their own power modules. Interesting things to keep examining.

Other notable part are Hwa Create with satcom modem and Runxin with RF transceiver. Both will be very important going forward given the rising role of satcom chips in phones.

The display is kunlun glass, also domestic.
 
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