Rubbing euro bills together make not PS5..
You need to do the hard and dirty work to do that. I don't think EU elites are capable of planning a 15 year long industrial Policy plan to take back control of their cyber domain. Let alone execute it.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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You need to do the hard and dirty work to do that. I don't think EU elites are capable of planning a 15 year long industrial Policy plan to take back control of their cyber domain. Let alone execute it.
I'm not sure it's a good thing for Huawei to have control over another key chokepoint of the semi supply chain.
As this past week has shown us, Huawei's an utterly ruthless beast of a company that will do whatever it takes to get what it wants. With its hands in so many segments of the supply chain, there's a real danger Huawei could leverage its market power to damage competition for upstream rivals like Oppo and Vivo.
For this reason it's better to have SMIC (a partially state-owned and neutral entity) do the fabbing. With what we know so far it's almost certainly the case. SMIC deserves a lot more recognition by the way, Huawei seems to be getting 90% of the credit when this is very much a 50/50 partnership in the same vein of TSMC/Apple.
Mark my words, semiconductor will go the way of solar panels in the next decade. The rule of law folks will soon resort to subsidizing and tariffing and outright banning Chinese chips, to no avail.
At the same time, SMIC currently only has so much capacity for its advanced nodes. Huawei expanding into the space through PXW for its own fabbing could well free up some of the capacity for other companies to use.
btw, I did a rough calculation on how many wafers per year is needed by Huawei from SMIC N+2 process
Again, I don't think SMIC produces this much right now, so would be hard pressed for a year or so until whenever domestic suppliers catch up and can help with things.
170k/year -> 14.k/month
Of course, it's quite possible that Huawei has been stocking up for a year or two of SMIC N+2 production already
Sure, but you still want to avoid a situation where rivals have to depend on Huawei for fabbing capacity, which then allows Huawei to charge exorbitant prices and render competitors unprofitable.
Have a look at Huawei's shareholding structure. Only employees are allowed to hold shares. Their compensation is directly tied to how well the company performs. This offers both a very powerful yet dangerous incentive. Huawei as a collective entity has every reason to maximize profit - even if it means abusing their dominant position to damage competition. Not saying it will happen, but the incentive is there.
Copium. Many analysts are stilling being dismissive. Another thing is most of them have no idea if it is SMIC or Huawei's licensed SMIC's tech and equipment.
Huawei unexpectedly unveiled the latest Mate 60 Pro smartphone last week during U.S. Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo's visit in China, as the government readies a new $40-billion investment fund to bolster its developing chip sector.
The Mate 60 Pro is powered by its proprietary chip Kirin 9000s and manufactured by the country's top contract chipmaker SMIC using an advanced 7 nanometre (nm) technology, according to a teardown by Ottawa-headquartered TechInsights.
Its findings and claims by early users about the phone's powerful performance indicate China is making some headway into developing high-end chips, even as Washington has over the recent years ramped up sanctions to cut its access to advanced chipmaking tools.
It "demonstrates the technical progress China’s semiconductor industry has been able to make without EUV tools. The difficulty of this achievement also shows the resilience of the country’s chip technological ability," TechInsights analyst Dan Hutcheson said.
EUV refers to extreme ultraviolet lithography and is used to make 7 nm or more advanced chips.
"At the same time, it is a great geopolitical challenge to the countries who have sought to restrict its access to critical manufacturing technologies. The result may likely be even greater restrictions than what exist today."
Jefferies analysts said TechInsights' findings could trigger a probe from the U.S. Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security, create more debate in the U.S. about the effectiveness of sanctions and prompt the Congress to include even harsher tech sanctions in a competition bill it is preparing against China.
"Overall the US-China tech war is likely to escalate," they said in a note.
A U.S. Department of Commerce representative did not immediately reply to a request for comment on Tuesday morning.
Huawei declined to comment. SMIC and China's State Council, which handles press queries on behalf of the Chinese government, did not immediately respond to requests for comments.
The most advanced chip SMIC had previously been known for making was 14nm, as it was barred by Washington in late 2020 from obtaining an EUV machine from Dutch firm ASML.
But TechInsights last year said it believed SMIC had managed to produce 7 nm chips by tweaking simpler DUV machines it could still purchase freely from ASML.
Some analysts including Jefferies' said there was also a possibility Huawei had purchased the tech and equipment from SMIC to make the chip rather than doing it in collaboration.
Whoever is making the chip, Tilly Zhang, an analyst at Gavekal Dragonomics, downplayed the success, citing a low yield rate which reduces the number of useable chips from each wafer and raises costs, and new export controls imposed by the Netherlands that will limit SMIC's access to more immersion DUV machine.
"They have just demonstrated that they are willing to accept much higher costs than are normally considered worthwhile ... It is only the combination of Huawei’s own large financial resources and generous government subsidies that could allow it to sell phones using these chips at normal market prices," Zhang said.
Reuters reported on Tuesday that China is set to launch a new state-backed investment fund that aims to raise about $40 billion for its chip sector, as the country ramps up efforts to catch up with the U.S. and other rivals.
Some research firms forecast SMIC's 7 nm process has an yield rate below 50%, versus the industry norm of 90% or more, and it would limit shipments to around 2-4 million chips, not enough for Huawei to regain its former smartphone market dominance.
Jefferies analysts reckon Huawei is preparing to ship ten million units of the Mate 60 Pro, though it may struggle to support that quantity with China-made 7 nm chips.
In that case it could turn to 10 nm chips, but with an estimated 20% yield, which refers to the number of working chips on each silicon wafer, Jefferies said, it would be far below the 90% for most consumer devices.
"The (U.S.) controls are imposing high costs for producing controlled technologies in China," said Doug Fuller, a chip researcher at the Copenhagen Business School, adding that the Chinese government was likely footing the bill.
Huawei's new chip breakthrough likely to trigger closer US scrutiny -analysts
SHENZHEN, China/SAN FRANCISCO, California (Reuters) - Huawei Technologies' breakthrough in making an advanced chip underscores China's determination and capacity for fighting back against U.S. sanctions, but the efforts are likely very costly and could prompt Washington to tighten curbs, analysts said.Huawei unexpectedly unveiled the latest Mate 60 Pro smartphone last week during U.S. Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo's visit in China, as the government readies a new $40-billion investment fund to bolster its developing chip sector.
The Mate 60 Pro is powered by its proprietary chip Kirin 9000s and manufactured by the country's top contract chipmaker SMIC using an advanced 7 nanometre (nm) technology, according to a teardown by Ottawa-headquartered TechInsights.
Its findings and claims by early users about the phone's powerful performance indicate China is making some headway into developing high-end chips, even as Washington has over the recent years ramped up sanctions to cut its access to advanced chipmaking tools.
It "demonstrates the technical progress China’s semiconductor industry has been able to make without EUV tools. The difficulty of this achievement also shows the resilience of the country’s chip technological ability," TechInsights analyst Dan Hutcheson said.
EUV refers to extreme ultraviolet lithography and is used to make 7 nm or more advanced chips.
"At the same time, it is a great geopolitical challenge to the countries who have sought to restrict its access to critical manufacturing technologies. The result may likely be even greater restrictions than what exist today."
Jefferies analysts said TechInsights' findings could trigger a probe from the U.S. Commerce Department's Bureau of Industry and Security, create more debate in the U.S. about the effectiveness of sanctions and prompt the Congress to include even harsher tech sanctions in a competition bill it is preparing against China.
"Overall the US-China tech war is likely to escalate," they said in a note.
A U.S. Department of Commerce representative did not immediately reply to a request for comment on Tuesday morning.
Huawei declined to comment. SMIC and China's State Council, which handles press queries on behalf of the Chinese government, did not immediately respond to requests for comments.
The most advanced chip SMIC had previously been known for making was 14nm, as it was barred by Washington in late 2020 from obtaining an EUV machine from Dutch firm ASML.
But TechInsights last year said it believed SMIC had managed to produce 7 nm chips by tweaking simpler DUV machines it could still purchase freely from ASML.
Some analysts including Jefferies' said there was also a possibility Huawei had purchased the tech and equipment from SMIC to make the chip rather than doing it in collaboration.
Whoever is making the chip, Tilly Zhang, an analyst at Gavekal Dragonomics, downplayed the success, citing a low yield rate which reduces the number of useable chips from each wafer and raises costs, and new export controls imposed by the Netherlands that will limit SMIC's access to more immersion DUV machine.
"They have just demonstrated that they are willing to accept much higher costs than are normally considered worthwhile ... It is only the combination of Huawei’s own large financial resources and generous government subsidies that could allow it to sell phones using these chips at normal market prices," Zhang said.
Reuters reported on Tuesday that China is set to launch a new state-backed investment fund that aims to raise about $40 billion for its chip sector, as the country ramps up efforts to catch up with the U.S. and other rivals.
Some research firms forecast SMIC's 7 nm process has an yield rate below 50%, versus the industry norm of 90% or more, and it would limit shipments to around 2-4 million chips, not enough for Huawei to regain its former smartphone market dominance.
Jefferies analysts reckon Huawei is preparing to ship ten million units of the Mate 60 Pro, though it may struggle to support that quantity with China-made 7 nm chips.
In that case it could turn to 10 nm chips, but with an estimated 20% yield, which refers to the number of working chips on each silicon wafer, Jefferies said, it would be far below the 90% for most consumer devices.
"The (U.S.) controls are imposing high costs for producing controlled technologies in China," said Doug Fuller, a chip researcher at the Copenhagen Business School, adding that the Chinese government was likely footing the bill.
We’ve now entered the bargaining phase.
Nobody names their process node using the same metrics anymore, so most use tsmc as the benchmark.
Critical feature size for the gate pitch (contact poly pitch aka CPP) & the BEOL metal (minimum metal pitch aka MMP) along with the design architecture dictates the size of the transistor cell. The transistor cell then dictates the Tx/mm2 or transistor density (transistors per mm^2). Transistor density is one aspect of comparing different fab's process capabiility.
Based on this, SMIC N+1 < tsmc 7nm < SMIC N+1 < tsmc 7+nm < tsmc 6nm < tsmc 5nm......
Below is an outdated list from 2019, but it gives you an idea of where things sit with different nodes. (Note, data for tsmc 7nm+ & 5nm is different from what's on this list, and it's missing Intel7):
SMIC N+1 transistor density is ~89 MTr/mm^2. Based on the feature size, I calculated N+2 to be around 115 MTr/mm^2. So why did I place N+2 as less than 7+nm? Well, N+2 feature sizes are slightly larger, ever so slightly, than tsmc 7+nm, so it'll come close to 7+nm node, but still just a tad behind. But because 7+nm is made with EUV, it naturally will have higher production yield and performance (from the improved pattern fidelity).
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