Chinese semiconductor industry

FairAndUnbiased said:

they can try, but the physical equipment is in China, its a complex process involving many tricky unit operations to separate elements of similar chemical reactivity, and many of the secrets in rare earth processing aren't patents but are trade secrets.

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, they haven't because they can't, not because they're merciful. If it could harm China more than it would harm themselves they would've done it already.

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Lol, it's amazing that people keep thinking that rare earth extraction, processing & magnet product is some silly monkeys job. You read this everywhere

It seems like people on this thread (most of us anyways) can appreciate somewhat how monumental of task it is for China's semiconductor industry to develop full supply chain & increase production, even if we are often very optimistic. but thankfully, China has been hitting some of those markets on our optimistic schedules.



Anyways, I want to just emphasize again that Sic & GaN are big deals in everything, but especially in defense industry that all these natsec people seem to care about but then dismiss the importance of a Ga ban

here is from May, Xi Jinping visited a CETC factory

近日，习近平总书记考察调研山西转型综合改革示范区时，在中国电科（山西）碳化硅材料产业基地展台前，接过一片高纯半绝缘4H-SIC单晶衬底仔细观看，高兴地说这解决了卡脖子问题。

这张薄如纸片、状如光盘的碳化硅晶片之所以受到总书记重视，是因为碳化硅作为全球最先进的第三代半导体材料，具有耐高压、高频、大功率等优良的物理特性，是卫星通讯、高压输变电、轨道交通、电动汽车、通讯基站等重要领域的核心材料，在航天、军工、核能等极端环境应用领域更有着不可替代的优势。

在半导体产业中，碳化硅已成为全球半导体产业的争夺前沿和战略制高点。

“5G之所以速度飞快，正是因为它有一颗非常强大的‘心脏’，这个‘心脏’依赖的就是碳化硅基器件。”相关技术专家表示，作为5G等射频通信中最理想的衬底材料，目前全球能批量生产高纯半绝缘碳化硅晶片的厂家仅有4家。

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It's so important for China to be at the forefront of every part of chipmaking, but especially 3rd & 4th semiconductor materials. The application is so vast in different new energy fields, but especially for aerospace, MIC & nuclear energy. All very strategic industries.

Interesting that they mentioned 5G in there, because GaN on SiC is very important for 5G/6G. Note only 4 fabs around the world can make high purity SiC wafers

As Wolfspeed said here

At sub-6 GHz frequencies, the mid-band offers a significant upgrade to the current 4G standard, and is enabled with today’s innovative component technologies, like gallium nitride (GaN) on silicon carbide (SiC), with much less modification to the system design
GaN’s higher efficiency at 5G frequencies compared with LDMOS also means a lower operating cost per bit/second and a lower carbon footprint. Wolfspeed, a dominant player in the GaN on SiC device market, estimates that GaN on SiC can save over 200 W of DC power compared to a system that uses LDMOS power amplifiers (PAs) when operated at maximum average power.

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A while ago, China allocated 6GHz
Note that 6Hz is basically the only one that makes sense in mid-range for 6G in the future. From above, we know 6Hz & GaN at these frequencies offer huge energy savings in data transfer over LDMOS PAs

Note also in Wolfspeed's satellite communication page, everything here are GaN on SiC

So if you think a full sanction on Ga is not a big deal, then you obviously haven't looked into its applications. More importantly, you have not thought about the role of RF & data transfer in military.

Now, the question is how China will implement this. That's the important question and I assume it's up to negotiation

FairAndUnbiased said:

they can try, but the physical equipment is in China, its a complex process involving many tricky unit operations to separate elements of similar chemical reactivity, and many of the secrets in rare earth processing aren't patents but are trade secrets.

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, they haven't because they can't, not because they're merciful. If it could harm China more than it would harm themselves they would've done it already.

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Bro a question, can the Chinese services those ASML machine themselves? Since they have the knowledge producing an equivalent machine themselves maybe they can substitute those spare parts with local one? AKA RS LASER to CYMER, U Precision to ASML Dual stage immersion. With ASML personnel in China, all 1,500 doing technical coordination work with Chinese suppliers?

Given that this is a military forum, so I do try to think about things from military point of view. There are many different variants of Sic, but the 2 most common ones are 4H and 6H. I think @tokenanalyst posted about 3C a while back, so will be interesting to see where that one excels in.

But why was it so important for Xi to Visit CETC to see high purity 4H silicon wafers?

Well see again here

some text i found in there
1) strength of SiC - it's smaller and stronger

• Faster speed
• Smaller stronger (Silicon Carbide is one of the strongest materials on earth.)
• Greater efficiency in normal and adverse condition
• Cost-effective in many applications.

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2) 4H vs 6H, 4H more expensive but better material

What is the Difference Between 4H and 6H Silicon Carbide Substrates

Compared to other polytypes of silicon carbide, such as 4H-SiC, 6H-SiC is generally less expensive to produce and is more readily available. However, its electrical and thermal properties may be slightly lower than those of other polytypes.

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3) 4H on GaN is a great combination

Applications of 4H-SiC include:

• high-power power electronics
• high-temperature sensor devices
• high-frequency power devices
• radiation-hard electronics

Due to its high thermal conductivity, it is also used as a substrate material for the growth of other semiconductor materials, such as

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.

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another one here about how much better GaN on SiC is vs other substrate

Denglin Technology won the exclusive investment from China Net Investment! Self-created GPU+ architecture, compatible with CUDA/OpenCL​

Recently, domestic general-purpose GPU manufacturer Denglin Technology has obtained exclusive investment from China Internet Investment Fund (hereinafter referred to as "China Internet Investment"). According to Denglin Technology, this will provide an important guarantee for the large-scale mass production and commercialization of Denglin's new generation of Goldwasser.

According to reports, Gao Lin is an AI accelerator card. The first product will be mass-produced and put on the market in 2021, and it will sell over 10,000 pieces in 2022.
The second-generation product will be taped out in 2022 and mass-produced in 2023. According to the test results of existing customers, the second-generation product provides 3-5 times performance improvement for transformer-based models, greatly reducing the hardware cost of ChatGPT-like and generative AI applications.

According to the information on the official website, Denglin Technology is the first general-purpose GPU company in China to achieve large-scale commercial implementation entirely by independent innovation. The core IP of Denglin Technology is completely independently developed. Computing architecture), based on the programming model and software ecology compatible with CUDA/OpenCL, through architectural innovation, it solves the dual problems of versatility and high efficiency that customers are concerned about.
Denglin Technology said that after a large number of customer product verifications, for AI computing, GPUs have significantly improved performance and energy efficiency compared with existing mainstream GPUs.

ansy1968 said:

Bro a question, can the Chinese services those ASML machine themselves? Since they have the knowledge producing an equivalent machine themselves maybe they can substitute those spare parts with local one? AKA RS LASER to CYMER, U Precision to ASML Dual stage immersion. With ASML personnel in China, all 1,500 doing technical coordination work with Chinese suppliers?

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No, different laser means optics need to be realigned. I'm not an optics expert, not even close, but I know that even the same ArF 193 nm lasers may have for example different focal lengths or spot size, which changes the entire optics column. The difference is small but nothing is small when we talk nanometers.

Luckily laser and stage aren't wear parts.

More on Ga-On-Sic

Why is Ga-On-Sic so good for 5G?

Among power transistor technologies, GaN has a smoother transition into saturation, which means that amplifiers can operate further into the saturated region where efficiency is higher. Although GaAs and Si LDMOS also have excellent linearity, power amplifiers using GaN devices can provide the same performance with high power-added efficiency (PAE). One company reports that its new GaN-based Satcom amplifiers provide a doubling of power output for the same saturated power capability, compared to their earlier GaAs amplifiers. This behavior is achieved by several different characteristics. Compared to LDMOS or GaAs, GaN-on-SiC technology offers high electron mobility, higher breakdown voltage, higher power density, compact gate area with shorter interconnects, lower input and output capacitances, higher input and output impedances, and higher PAE.

Each of these characteristics leads to improved linearity, both within the device itself and by enabling simpler matching with wider bandwidth. With greater inherent linearity, the remaining distortion can be more easily reduced by feedback, fixed predistortion or adaptive predistortion.

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Yeah, the power output of Ga-On-Sic is so much better than GaAs and LDMOS that are commonly used in various 5G and RF applications. So this is a big deal for any kind of data transfer and satellite communication and such

Taking a look at where China is with SiC and GaN

量产新能源车型中搭载碳化硅（SiC）以及5G基站功放使用碳化硅基氮化镓，催生了碳化硅产业链从衬底-外延-器件-模块-应用巨大的市场需求。我国目前在以碳化硅、氮化镓为首的第三代半导体材料领域已经形成了完整的产业链，从材料、装备及工艺技术等方面也均实现了部分国产化替代，要实现碳化硅关键装备及工艺技术完全的国产自主可控，仍需产业上下游各方加强协作，携手攻克难关。

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so in terms of product for SiC and GaN, China has full supply chain. Working on making sure China has full control domestically over all SiC related production equipment and processing technology. Looks like that might not be fully complete yet, who knows

湖南作为第三代半导体产业发展的新兴区域，通过不断加大攻关布局，培育战略力量，强化系统创新，不断推进第三代半导体产业的发展，已经形成了较好的产业基础，并逐渐形成了产业集聚的态势，也有一定的产业优势和旺盛的需求，并拥有中国电科四十八所、中车、湖南三安、泰科天润、比亚迪等一批极具代表性的产业发展力量。
中国电子科技集团公司第四十八研究所所长王平致辞时表示，我国目前以碳化硅，氮化镓为代表的第三代半导体材料领域已经形成了完整的产业链，装备工艺和材料技术均实现了部分国产化替代，占据了一定的市场份额，四十八所作为我国国家级集成电路工艺装备研究所，目前已在碳化硅外延炉、高温退火炉、高温氧化炉等核心装备方面实现了重点突破，也正在统筹国内半导体工艺设备相关的供应链资源，全力推进国家半导体装备产业集聚区的建设，而要推动实现第三代半导体核心装备等泛半导体设备的产业化，也需要产业界齐心协

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So CETC 48th institute talks about where as the factory that produces equipment & such. Looks like they are making good progress here

1.GaN-onSi 硅基氮化镓：硅是目前最成熟和成本最低的衬底材料，生长速度快、良率高、技术成熟，因此硅基氮化镓外延成本低，扩大尺寸也比较容易。但是由于 Si 是非极性衬底，在 Si 衬底上生长具有极性的 GaN 外延层较为困难。同时由 Si 与 GaN 晶格失配和热失配引起的 GaN 外延层的龟裂是目前急需解决的难题。

2.GaN-onSiC 碳化硅基氮化镓：得益于碳化硅优异的导热性，结合氮化镓高功率密度和低损耗，决定了碳化硅基氮化镓是射频器件的最合适材料。SiC 本身即具有蓝光发光特征，且为低阻材料、可以制作电极、其晶格常数和材料的热膨胀系数与 GaN 材料更为接近，并且易于解理。但目前碳化硅衬底生长难度高，技术还没有取得突破，尺寸仍然限制在 4 英寸和 6 英寸，8 英寸和 12 英寸尚未推广到大规模应用。

3.GaN-on-sapphire 蓝宝石基氮化镓：是目前使用最为普遍的一种衬底材料。特点是容易获得、价格适当、易于清洁和处理、在高温下具有很好的稳定性、可以大尺寸稳定生长。其缺点是蓝宝石衬底本身不导电，制作电极、解理较为困难。并且散热性能不好，限制了大功率 LED 的生产和应用。主要应用于 LED 市场，主流尺寸为 4 英寸。

4.GaN-on-GaN 氮化镓基氮化镓：在生产过程中采用同种类的氮化镓，是最为理想的衬底材料，但目前所能获得的单晶尺寸太小。

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GaN on Si and Sapphire are the most common

GaN on GaN is the best, but far from achieving right now

GaN on SiC is higher cost, but the best situated for RF technology right now. But only with 4, 6 inch wafers

18）中国电科：2020 年 2 月，中国电科（山西）碳化硅材料产业基地在 山西转型综合改革示范区正式投产。项目设计产能为年产 10 万片 4-6 英 寸 N 型（导电型）碳化硅单晶晶片、5 万片 4-6 英寸高纯半绝缘型碳化 硅单晶晶片。我们预计中国电科 2023-2026 年衬底产能（折合为 6 英寸） 15/15/15/15 万片。
21）中电化合物：当前公司衬底产能约为 2 万片，2022 年公司提出拟分 两期建成年产 8 万片 4-6 寸碳化硅衬底及外延片、碳化硅基氮化镓 N 外 延片生产能力，按照项目期 4 年估计。我们预计中电化合物 2023-2026 年衬底产能（折合为 6 英寸）2/2/4/6 万片。

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I do think CETC & others are able to produce Ga-On-Si wafers now

在半绝缘型碳化硅衬底上生长氮化镓外延层制得碳化硅基氮化镓(GaN-on-SiC)外延片，可制成微波射频器件，应用于5G通信等领域;在导电型碳化硅衬底上生长碳化硅外延层(SiC-on-SiC)制得碳化硅外延片，可制成功率器件，应用于电动汽车、新能源、储能、轨道交通等领域。

SiC外延片属于行业产业链中间环节，其中，Wolfspeed、ShowaDenko呈现双寡头垄断市场，合计约占SiC导电型外延片95%的市场份额。目前国内相关外延厂商东莞天域和厦门瀚天天成等均已实现产业化，可供应4-6英寸外延片。中电科13所、55所、希科半导体等也能供应外延片，整体产能仍有较大提升空间。

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Again domestically when it comes to GaN-on-SiC, keep your eyes on 13th and 55th institute with CETC. They do need to improve stil

"Sai Microelectronics announces the official mass production of BAW filters."


At the same time, Sai Microelectronics also issued an announcement stating that its holding subsidiary, Silex Microsystems Technology (Beijing) Co., Ltd. (referred to as "Silex Beijing" or "Beijing FAB3"), specializing in MEMS (Micro-Electro-Mechanical Systems) technology, has completed the small-batch trial production phase of a series of BAW (Bulk Acoustic Wave, with resonant cavity acoustic waves) filters for a certain customer. On July 15, 2023, the customer signed a "Long-Term Purchase Agreement" with Silex Beijing, marking the beginning of the commercial-scale production of BAW filters.

Sai Microelectronics stated, "Despite accumulating and making breakthroughs in MEMS manufacturing technology in various fields, our Beijing FAB3 is still in its early operational stage. The continuous process of capacity ramp-up and yield improvement for the production line requires time, and achieving capacity expansion and production targets will take some time as well."

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This "certain customer" could very well be HUAWEI given the recent rumors that HUAWEI will bring back their 5G phones this year.

Review of Moore Threads S80 GPU card. They only tested it with games. Performance is lackluster on DirectX gaming as people reported.
They did zero testing on compute.

gelgoog said:

Review of Moore Threads S80 GPU card. They only tested it with games. Performance is lackluster on DirectX gaming as people reported.
They did zero testing on compute.

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Drivers, no drivers no GPU.

I posted my thoughts on move toward 800V EV platform and the need for 1200V SiC MOSFET

My prediction is that Infineon & Wolfspeed will have to do JVs & share tech with Chinese players if they want to keep their market share in the largest EV market in the world (by far)

Looks like Sanan will be getting to 1200V next year.

CETC was the first to achieve 1200V in trial production a couple of months ago.

If Infineon & wolfspeed don't want to share their tech, then they will just loose orders to domestic players & ST/Sanan JV