The problem for US companies and to certain extend Japanese companies goes beyond profits because once Chinese semi tools, materials and software companies get big enough and they settle as the default suppliers, the Chinese goverment will want to "protect" their new "champions", entering the Chinese market again is going to be tough to say the least. I wouldn't be surprise if in the future the Chinese goverment put them quotas or limit the tools that they can sell in the country or even joint ventures for access to market. The clock is ticking.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
- Start date
- Status
Not defending him or anything. Just wanted to say he has been asked this question here before multiple times, probably even by you. From what I remember he said he was a foreigner working in a Taiwanese fab, and that he has been working in fabs for many years and that he gets information about mainland semicon industry because he knows people who have moved from Taiwanese fabs to mainland ones.
There is of course no way for the rest of us to verify any of that, we just have his word. So if it is only his word that your looking for I just wanted to say he has already said it.
D
Deleted member 24525
Guest
Do you have a link to that patent source? I'd be interested in seeing which companies account for the most.
Look at
Set Indicator to "5 - Patent grants by technology"
Set Report Type to "Total count by applicants origin"
Set Year range 2021
Set Origin to all countries with "Add All" button
Set Field of Technology to "26 - Machine tools"
Press Search
Here's some other interesting stats:
In 2021, 36.6% of patent grants came from China
17.6% from USA
16% from Japan
9.5% from Korea
5.3% from Germany
and 0.1% from the supapowah
For comparison Ireland has 0.2% and Israel has 0.4%
Semiconductors
From 2010 to 2021, China had 13.8% of patents related to semiconductors. In 2021 only, this increased to 25%
Japan has 37.7%
USA has 18.5
Korea has 17.8
Germany has 4.4
Netherlands has 1.4
In 2021, 36.6% of patent grants came from China
17.6% from USA
16% from Japan
9.5% from Korea
5.3% from Germany
and 0.1% from the supapowah
For comparison Ireland has 0.2% and Israel has 0.4%
Semiconductors
From 2010 to 2021, China had 13.8% of patents related to semiconductors. In 2021 only, this increased to 25%
Japan has 37.7%
USA has 18.5
Korea has 17.8
Germany has 4.4
Netherlands has 1.4
Last edited:
Right, @hvpc raises legitimate concerns that fabs have. That online poster who claims to source equipment for SMIC Jincheng said essentially the same thing. The people whose job depends on achieving higher yield want to use Amat/Lam tools.
We essentially ask the fabs to take 15 to 20% margin hits in order to help domestic industry. There is a reason why domestic equipment really took off after October. Commercial companies have to stay afloat first. They will always want to use tools that are the most economical to them. Using worse, more cumbersome tools hurt their ability to be competitive.
That's why what SMIC did with its own domestic equipment research facility in Beijing is to be commended. That's also why Chinese govt needs to support fabs that do this in real tangible manner
I have no problem taking what he says about who he is at face value; that still makes him an unfavourably biased source of information at best. Semiconductors are to Taiwan as oil is to Saudi Arabia - without their primary industry all the latter would have are dates and the former pineapples. Of course they'll want to downplay the emergence of any real competitor that would threaten their livelihood because they have no other way to make the living they do. Not only would Taiwan be severely economically damaged by the mainland's success in semiconductor manufacturing, it would lose a large chunk of the reason the US uses it as a cat's paw against China.
Having said that, nobody here - least of all myself - is waving pom-poms about Chinese tools. I think we all have some degree of disappointment about the progress that China's made since the Trump sanctions on Huawei. Indigenous 28nm in mass production should have been a milestone long behind us at this point, but c'est la vie.
But now that we have credible sources all repeating more or less that indigenous DUVi is finally on the cusp of mass production (probably the "breakthrough" that started this comment chain), I see no reason to entertain generic "China will never do X" statements.
Last edited:
I agree. The bizarre thing is that this has always been one of my suspicions. China would never have been able to do any of this if China wasn't restricted. Even a 1% loss in efficiency means they would never adapt Chinese tools.
Thus, without this insane trade war it was likely Chinese manufacturers would just keep happily never using Chinese equipment. Thus, was this planned by China?
This is normal. The biggest problem in China's semiconductor manufacturing industry has never been technology, but the absence of a market. The semiconductor manufacturing industry has always been very closed. And SMIC has never wanted to use domestic equipment.
- Status