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tphuang

tphuang

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watching this interview with head of Loongson right now. Quite inspirational actually.
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basically, it's important to note that from 2006 to 2009, Loongson didn't get the funding it needed from the gov't and owed 70 to 80 million RMB. Back then, I guess Loongson just did the RnD but not many people bought it.
And then head of Loongson talked about big international firms coming to offer Loongson money to do JVs in the early 2010s and such and basically abandon independent development. They refused to take the easy and more profitable path back then.
Even then, they still lacked money to get the people needed for development. They kept borrowing money.
Also talked about how they didn't know what the market wanted. Their product was not desirable due to lack of ecosystem.
Also starting in 2018, they started facing early stages of sanction problems due to their usage of MIPS ISA.
Started development of LoongArch in second half of 2019. And now we have the 5000 series developed and the beginnings of a loongArch ecosystem after 3 years.
 
vincent

vincent

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tphuang said:
watching this interview with head of Loongson right now. Quite inspirational actually.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
basically, it's important to note that from 2006 to 2009, Loongson didn't get the funding it needed from the gov't and owed 70 to 80 million RMB. Back then, I guess Loongson just did the RnD but not many people bought it.
And then head of Loongson talked about big international firms coming to offer Loongson money to do JVs in the early 2010s and such and basically abandon independent development. They refused to take the easy and more profitable path back then.
Even then, they still lacked money to get the people needed for development. They kept borrowing money.
Also talked about how they didn't know what the market wanted. Their product was not desirable due to lack of ecosystem.
Also starting in 2018, they started facing early stages of sanction problems due to their usage of MIPS ISA.
Started development of LoongArch in second half of 2019. And now we have the 5000 series developed and the beginnings of a loongArch ecosystem after 3 years.
Click to expand...
The guy is a huge Mao fan and believes Mao's idea of self-reliance
 
tphuang

tphuang

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vincent said:
The guy is a huge Mao fan and believes Mao's idea of self-reliance
Click to expand...
LA_SelfReliance.png

Well you said it. Loongsong believes that its product has to use its own IP and ISA. More importantly, it only uses domestic process for its chip production. Does not rely on using TSMC/Samsung's more advanced process to raise performance of server CPUs like T-Head.
 
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tonyget

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continue last post

深蓝：上微800系列的干式双工台版本光刻机，在产线调通了吗，可以大批量制造芯片了否？
havok：90nm差不多了，不是燕东4月要试产了么？90nm光刻机在燕东调试快有2年了，20年的时候就在那里了

王鑫：浸没式内部结构像不像ASML的浸没式？
havok：干式像 浸没就肯定像，90nm机和28nm机的内部结构没多大差别

深蓝：Has the 800 series dry-type dual-station version lithography machine of SMEE been adjusted in the production line, and can it manufacture chips in large quantities?
havok：90nm is almost ready, isn't Yandong going to trial production in April? The 90nm lithography machine has been debugging in Yandong for almost 2 years now, it has been there since 2020

王鑫：Is SMEE's immersive-type machine's internal structure similar to ASML's immersive-type?
havok：Yes, if the dry-type is similar than the immersive-type will be similar as well，the internal structure of 90nm machine and 28nm machine is not much different
 
PopularScience

PopularScience

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tonyget said:
continue last post

深蓝：上微800系列的干式双工台版本光刻机，在产线调通了吗，可以大批量制造芯片了否？
havok：90nm差不多了，不是燕东4月要试产了么？90nm光刻机在燕东调试快有2年了，20年的时候就在那里了

王鑫：浸没式内部结构像不像ASML的浸没式？
havok：干式像 浸没就肯定像，90nm机和28nm机的内部结构没多大差别

深蓝：Has the 800 series dry-type dual-station version lithography machine of SMEE been adjusted in the production line, and can it manufacture chips in large quantities?
havok：90nm is almost ready, isn't Yandong going to trial production in April? The 90nm lithography machine has been debugging in Yandong for almost 2 years now, it has been there since 2020

王鑫：Is SMEE's immersive-type machine's internal structure similar to ASML's immersive-type?
havok：Yes, if the dry-type is similar than the immersive-type will be similar as well，the internal structure of 90nm machine and 28nm machine is not much different
Click to expand...
This confirmed that Yandong bought 90nm lithography machine.
 
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european_guy

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tonyget said:
havok：90nm is almost ready, isn't Yandong going to trial production in April? The 90nm lithography machine has been debugging in Yandong for almost 2 years now, it has been there since 2020
Click to expand...

Trial production in April means it can go in volume production by year end. In this case it will be 3 years from delivery to volume production.

It is not so long time considering that the machine included the main sub-modules are totally new and that the machine has been probably developed on-site. The next step, the immersion version, probably will have a shorter ramp-up, because, as havoc said, the internal structure of the 2 machines, included the U-Precision's dual stage, is very similar, and also, very important, the gained on-the-field experience and software improvements of the dry machine will be ported to the immersion machine.

If the immersion machine, now under internal testing/debugging in SMEE, will be shipped to customer within the next months, we can assume end of 2024 / beginning of 2025 for volume production....just in time for next US elections.

As a side note, if ASML immersion machines will be banned this year, development of the 28nm fabs, now under construction in China, could be delayed by about 18 / 24 months.

I'm not sure is a good deal for US to give up a clear market leadership in China, that would have lasted for at least the next 10 years, in exchange of a possibly 2 yearish slowdown in China's IC development.
 
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PopularScience

PopularScience

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european_guy said:
Trial production in April means it can go in volume production by year end. In this case it will be 3 years from delivery to volume production.

It is not so long time considering that the machine included the main sub-modules are totally new and that the machine has been probably developed on-site. The next step, the immersion version, probably will have a shorter ramp-up, because, as havoc said, the internal structure of the 2 machines, included the U-Precision's dual stage, is very similar, and also, very important, the gained on-the-field experience and software improvements of the dry machine will be ported to the immersion machine.

If the immersion machine, now under internal testing/debugging in SMEE, will be shipped to customer within the next months, we can assume end of 2024 / beginning of 2025 for volume production....just in time for next US elections.

As a side note, if ASML immersion machines will be banned this year, development of the 28nm fabs, now under construction in China, could be delayed by about 18 / 24 months.

I'm not sure is a good deal for US to give up a clear market leadership in China, that would have lasted for at least the next 10 years, in exchange of a possibly 2 yearish slowdown in China's IC development.
Click to expand...
Havok did mentioned that DUVi will be certified in production line by the middle of this year. I think a few units already delivered to customers.
 
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