Chinese semiconductor industry

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mmbro

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"Biden will also meet Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte in Washington for a related discussion on January 17."

This thing escalated at Biden level!

This is a clear sign that so far US administration officials were unsuccessful in their "convincing" of Japan and Holland. So now this thing has been escalated at the highest level: the President of the US!

We will see how it goes...it is telling that President Biden himself has to be directly involved in this negotation to eventually make the ban happen....and anyhow the final result, with all the small but very critical details, is still far from clear.
US/Biden will fail in its efforts to block CN's semicon development, simply because they all started with a wrong premise,, when in fact the reality and foundation are right in front of them.

We have 1 grandma in Loongson, 1 top person in SMIC,, you can bet there are tens of top semicon ppl in CN surrounded by thousands of top talented ppl, no?
Like the 600 ppl in a top project at SMEE that has been mentioned..

Now that CN gov has intervened heavily in all semicon projects, guess what..

Mod Edit: Please stay away from blatantly racist comments about Indians and about East Asians being smarter. That is wrong and inappropriate.
 
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tphuang

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Which brings us back to LoongArch & Loongson. So, what is Huawei's option for chip design if it never gets license to go beyond Armv8? Even if SMIC gets the ability to produce 5nm chips in a couple of years, how can Hisilicon design chips that are competitive with its rivals if gets hobbled by ARM license restrictions?

Well, I think the most obvious answer is that they will work on creating the best HPC chip they can with RISC-V (either with their own core or using Xiangshan gen 3). That is certainly a possible solution for data centers and cloud computing. But what about smartphone, tablets or desktops? RISC-V is energy efficient, but hasn't reached the raw performance of x86 or ARM design. It might be quite a few years before we reach that point.

Well, recently Huawei has added support for LoongArch on harmony. I think they should at least consider the possibility of designing chips with LoongArch, since it is supported in both openEuler and Harmony. Something to think about as Huawei & Hisilicon undoubtedly are still experiencing a lot of pressure.

3A5000vs3A6000_Chart.png
Anyway, as we discussed before, 3A6000 single core performance (LA664 core) is 37 to 68% better than 3A5000 single core performance (LA464 core). This is despite continued usage of 12nm process. On top of that, I/O speed is also 50% higher. So through control of its own ISA and core design process, Loongson has managed to get significant gains in its architecture while still using a process that's extremely mature. This chip is almost taped out, which means it will be in production this year. Similar 3C6000 and 3D6000 may go in production this year and experience similar jumps in performance vs 5000 series.
3C6000是16核服务器芯片,内核是LA664,与3A6000相同。3D6000则是两片3C6000封装在一起构成32核服务器CPU,可以匹敌搭载Zen2核心的AMD EPIC。只要软件能跟上,商业市场已经没有性能短板了。
Given the likely decline in Huawei's Kunpeng-920 stock, it would make sense for them to purchase to buy some 3D5000 or 3D6000 for their own data centers. And if LA664 core is as good as advertised and continue to have lower energy consumption then ARM core, isn't it a good idea for them to get into smartphone and tablet?

Looks like from this, Huawei is already gong to be using the less advanced 2K0500 CPU for industrial control and other low performance use cases. I'm not sure what would prevent further usage except for more work with Loongson. A large investment by Huawei into Loongson would be a big vote of confidence.
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龙芯下一代7000系列CPU,进一步提升CPU核性能,IPC瞄准Zen3和12代酷睿,计划采用7nm工艺,SPEC06定点Base最保守估算是40分,届时,会有24-32核的3D7000(7nm)和48-64核3E7000(两片封装)。
Now the 7000 series will come out probably sometimes next year and aim to for even better performance with 7nm technology. This commentary from guancha link about its performance is likely very conservative. Needless to say, a 48 to 64 core 3E7000 would be quite powerful. On top of that, they can get that performance level with N+1 or N+2 technology. Which is quite impressive when you think about the fact that all the other advanced HPC chips are using 5nm technology by now.
 

Maikeru

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Ooops... maybe decoupling was a mistake!

Those morons do learn, albeit slowly.

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Decoupling Wastes U.S. Leverage on China​

Keeping Chinese firms dependent on Western chips is a better strategy.​


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, vice president and director of studies at the Center for a New American Security.
That horse has bolted. I cannot imagine China allowing any critical tech reliance on the USA going forward where this can possibly be avoided.
 

tonyget

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Yes, but SSA800 is dual stage and what Yandong bought was SSA600. As that article said, they have 1 very small all domestic production line in Beijing. Aside from Yandong, can you think of anyone else that matches that statement?

What does SSA800 has anything to do here?It will only be more expensive than SSA600

Yandong's new production line is "primely domestic" not "all domestic". They just bought new Canon front-end lithography machine that's not secret

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基于成套国产装备的特色工艺12吋集成电路生产线项目实施主体为公司全资子公司燕东科技,投资75亿元,利用现有的净化厂房和已建成的厂务系统和设施,进行局部适应性改造,并购置三百余台套设备,建设以国产装备为主的12英寸晶圆生产线。该产线涉及建筑面积约16,000㎡(其中超净厂房面积9,000㎡),月产能4万片,工艺节点为65nm,产品定位为高密度功率器件、显示驱动IC、电源管理IC、硅光芯片等。
 
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tphuang

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What does SSA800 has anything to do here?It will only be more expensive than SSA600

Yandong's new production line is "primely domestic" not "all domestic". They just bought new Canon front-end lithography machine that's not secret
Again, that Taiwanese article said there is one small volume production line in Beijing that's all domestic. They didn't specify which fab. But given what we know, there is a good change they are referring to Yandong. If they bought the tools in 2021(as that chart showed), then lithography machine would've been SSA600. Buying Canon lithography scanners don't change the situation, because they should have more than 1 production line.
 

hvpc

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Yes,according to Yandong IPO file,they have allocated 200 million RMB for lithography machine. If that money is for front end dry-type lithography machine,it will be at most 1-2 units. If that money is for packaging lithography machine,it will be around seven machines assuming they are buying 500 series.

1-2 front end lithography machine seems inadequate for a new production line,so it's more likely that the lithography machine Yandong bought from SMEE are for
havok:封装500系列的约3千万一台,300系列约6百万一台
havok:前道比如i线的SSB800,核心部件干式双工件台约1千5百万,镜头和照明用南京茂莱的价格比工件台便宜些,整机不低于5千万。至于浸没式单一个镜头就超过6千万。 燕东的2亿顶多买1~2台干式的

havok: 500 series packaging lithography machine cost about 30 million RMB per unit , 300 series about 6 million RMB per unit
havok: The front end i-line lithography machine SSB800, the core component dry-type dual working station is about 15 million RMB , and the price of lens and illuminating system from Nanjing Mloptic is cheaper than the dual working station. The whole machine is no less than 50 million RMB . As for immersion lithography machine, the core lens alone is more than 60 million RMB. Yandong's 200 million RMB will buy at most 1-2 front end dry-type lithography machine
@tonyget, do you think the iLine price tag is too high for a SSB800?

SSB800 at no less than 50M RMB seems quite expensive for a front end iLine system. But it’s not a surprise the system price is so high considering what UPrecision is reportedly charging for the DWS stage.

With the current exchange rate, you could get a Canon FPA5550 iZ2 for <25M RMB that’s at least 50% more productive. Even ASML iLine could be had at ~35M RMB.
 

tphuang

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Huawei waiting for Chinese semiconductor tech to catch-up.

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I think posted the by the infamous Huawei whisperer. Given the lack of future of ARM in China, I see it really as a fools errand for Hisilicon to keep designing smartphone CPUs around ARM. I wish they devote more effort with RISC-V or LoongArch. Since domestic process for advanced CPU won't be ready until probably 2025, they got some time to start trying out RISC type of architecture. Huawei should know better than anyone to not trust in ARM.
 
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