Chinese semiconductor industry

Status
Not open for further replies.

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
so Yandong buy seven unit of 500 series?

Yes,according to Yandong IPO file,they have allocated 200 million RMB for lithography machine. If that money is for front end dry-type lithography machine,it will be at most 1-2 units. If that money is for packaging lithography machine,it will be around seven machines assuming they are buying 500 series.

1-2 front end lithography machine seems inadequate for a new production line,so it's more likely that the lithography machine Yandong bought from SMEE are for packaging.

havok:封装500系列的约3千万一台,300系列约6百万一台
havok:前道比如i线的SSB800,核心部件干式双工件台约1千5百万,镜头和照明用南京茂莱的价格比工件台便宜些,整机不低于5千万。至于浸没式单一个镜头就超过6千万。 燕东的2亿顶多买1~2台干式的

havok: 500 series packaging lithography machine cost about 30 million RMB per unit , 300 series about 6 million RMB per unit
havok: The front end i-line lithography machine SSB800, the core component dry-type dual working station is about 15 million RMB , and the price of lens and illuminating system from Nanjing Mloptic is cheaper than the dual working station. The whole machine is no less than 50 million RMB . As for immersion lithography machine, the core lens alone is more than 60 million RMB. Yandong's 200 million RMB will buy at most 1-2 front end dry-type lithography machine
 

PopularScience

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yes,according to Yandong IPO file,they have allocated 200 million RMB for lithography machine. If that money is for front end dry-type lithography machine,it will be at most 1-2 units. If that money is for packaging lithography machine,it will be around seven machines assuming they are buying 500 series.

1-2 front end lithography machine seems inadequate for a new production line,so it's more likely that the lithography machine Yandong bought from SMEE are for packaging.
Why Yandong need many advanced packaging lithography machine then?

I thought they are 65nm fab.
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
Why Yandong need many advanced packaging lithography machine then?

I thought they are 65nm fab.

Because packaging is the next step after fabrication. For an IDM like Yandong,they don't sell bare chips,they ship finished-ready to use chips to customers
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Because packaging is the next step after fabrication. For an IDM like Yandong,they don't sell bare chips,they ship finished-ready to use chips to customers
so Yandong buy seven unit of 500 series?
sorry, where is the proof they bought 7 SSX500? The other link said there is a really low volume all domestic production line in Beijing (I posted a few days ago). That seems to match the 200 million RMB investment quite well if each SSA600 is 50 million RMB.
 

tonyget

Senior Member
Registered Member
sorry, where is the proof they bought 7 SSX500? The other link said there is a really low volume all domestic production line in Beijing (I posted a few days ago). That seems to match the 200 million RMB investment quite well if each SSA600 is 50 million RMB.

Who said SSA600 is 50 million RMB per unit?

havok literally said 200 million RMB can only get Yandong 1-2 front end dry-type lithography machine. That's more like over 100 million RMB per unit

havok:前道比如i线的SSB800,核心部件干式双工件台约1千5百万,镜头和照明用南京茂莱的价格比工件台便宜些,整机不低于5千万。至于浸没式单一个镜头就超过6千万。 燕东的2亿顶多买1~2台干式的
 
Last edited:

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Who said SSA600 is 50 million RMB per unit?

havok literally said 200 million RMB can only get Yandong 1-2 front end dry-type lithography machine. That's more like over 100 million RMB per unit
Yes, but SSA800 is dual stage and what Yandong bought was SSA600. As that article said, they have 1 very small all domestic production line in Beijing. Aside from Yandong, can you think of anyone else that matches that statement?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
And just as importantly, they need to add more support for their ISA. It only got added to Harmony in November! It still needs to work with all the linux OS (especially ones in China) to have native support for their ISA. That to me seems like the main challenge for them. It's never easy to design your own ISA and then for the market to adopt it. I would like to see more Chinese companies license LoongArch ISA in their designs.
Alright, so more on the current desktop/server chip dilemma in China if we look beyond RISC-V, which is still probably 2 years away (since Nanhu hasn't completed taping out/testing yet).

Back in 2020, Phytium launched D2000 and S2500 using 14nm process and FTC663 core design
Phytium_D2000_Details.JPG
This was kind of impressive at the time since they achieved 94/97 for spec2006 scoring At the same time, they promoted a new core FTC860 that was supposed to be more than 25 point per core. With 64 core, this would've yielded server chip of over 1000 points on spec2006. This was developed for their next generation S5000 server chip and required TSMC 7nm process. Right after this, they got put entity list by us gov't and their plan got torpedoed. FTC860 still hasn't been unveiled after 2 years. I assume whatever core they design next has to use SMIC process, probably the N+1 process.
Phytium_FTC860PerformanceEstimates.jpg
Even so, they got an advantage over the competition for the time being and D2000 + S2500 have been among the better design. Up there with Hygon CPUs for the past 2 years and have been winning many orders. As such, you see E2000 and D2000 winning a lot of orders.

I've become more bullish about LoongSon recently after seeing that more domestic software makers have finally developed software for LoongArch and that their chips are more competitive. For example, 3D5000.
Loongson3D5000_Details.JPG
4 32 core 3D5000 CPUs can achieve score of 1600, which is comparable to 4 64 core S2500 CPUs
Phytium_S2500vsFT2000_Details.jpg
So now, Loongson with 12nm proess 3D5000 has a competitive server CPU to Phytium's S2500 process.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Other issues with ARM

back when arm v8 came out, both Phytium and Huawei got license to use the instruction set and design their own core.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Many Chinese companies design Arm-based chips, but most will license complete Arm cores on a single-use or multi-use basis, so they don’t have to design a core themselves.
More ambitious chip design companies may get an architecture license, which allows the licensee to change the design itself. This is what you need to create a customized core like the Kirin line of phone CPUs, designed by Huawei’s HiSilicon for use in its phones. But it’s difficult to build a core from scratch, so you have to be highly skilled.
Currently, only two companies in China have an architecture license for v8: Huawei and Phytium Technology, a fabless chip design company focused on Arm server chips..
Note how both Phytium and Huawei got the architecture license for v8 and were able to design their own core. In the case of Phytium, that would be FTC663 and the unreleased FTC860. But given that both companies are on the entity list and current geopolitical climate, I don't expect them to ever get the license to latest version of ARM or architecture license. In essence, any ARM designs they create will always be handicapped.

With such handicap, I wonder how Phytium can ever have long term future.

We know that Alibaba got ArmV9 license for Yitian-710 back in 2021
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
but we also hear that they are not granted access to the latest neoverse cores and I doubt they will be granted architecture license.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
The report about neoverse was denied later, but I think Alibaba access to the latest ARM technology is very much in doubt. So in this case, even design shops that are not in the entity list are likely to be kneecapped by Western sanctions. I don't expect this to change. Hence, the push for RISC-V
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top