Chinese semiconductor industry

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theorlonator

Junior Member
Registered Member
It is all disinformation IMHO.

1) It is only Bloomberg reporting the same story. They first reported the anonymous sources, now the same Bloomberg following up on it.

2) The original story said that the Dutch authorities will agree to the ban next month, after two Dutch ministers said the opposite the past two weeks. The problem here is the calendar. For non-white people, we all have to remember that this is the Christmas holiday, and no one in government is going to do any work at all. By suggesting next month, all that is doing is trying to keep this story alive. It could be dead for all we know.

3) Besides, this was done all ass-backwards anyways. The Americans announced their IC bans against China unilaterally, because no one else wanted to go along with it. US officials publicly on record stating no one else is with them at this time, but they expect them to comply later. Surely, attempts were made to have those allies comply now, which were totally rejected. By suggesting there is a ban coming, at this stage of the game, seems more like damage control.
Yeah I just posted the tweet because the reply was interesting. The articles are being posted because the negotiations haven't been working out as well and so it's a technique for the US to gain leverage. I wasn't trying to spam.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member

Jiangfeng Electronics: Related aluminum targets have been mass-produced at the 5nm technology node​

Recently, some investors asked Jiangfeng Electronics on the interactive platform, whether your company's equipment has entered its industrial chain for 14nm mass production in Shanghai? I wish the company a world-class semiconductor materials company.

Jiangfeng Electronics stated on the investor interaction platform on October 8 that the company has established cooperative relations with domestic semiconductor equipment manufacturers and chip manufacturers. The parts and components produced by the company are mainly used in semiconductor equipment such as PVD, CVD, and etching machines. At present, it has achieved mass production and delivery in many chip manufacturers and semiconductor equipment manufacturers.

In addition, some investors pointed out that in P45 of the 2021 annual report, ultra-high-purity tantalum (Ta) targets and rings, copper targets (Cu), titanium targets (Ti), aluminum targets ( Al)...and achieve full mass production on the client side, among which tantalum targets and rings have been mass-produced in TSMC's 7nm chips. At the same time, some products applied to the 5nm technology node passed the evaluation and went into mass production, and some products entered the verification stage. Aren't aluminum and titanium targets used for process nodes above 110nm, so what does 28-7nm have to do with it? Is it for the beta side? May I ask how many processes are the most advanced aluminum targets used in the company?

Jiangfeng Electronics stated on the investor interaction platform that the front-end chip manufacturing of advanced processes also requires the use of aluminum and titanium targets. At present, the company's related aluminum targets have been mass-produced at the 5nm technology node.

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
2022 is already ending, so where are at least rumors on all the necessary equipment - litho, etching, ion implantation, etc.? Litho grants for 350 nm machines were aimed for 2024, so how local 90 nm can even happen in 2022? Unless "localize" means buying from China.

Update: I checked and the grant was actually for 350 nm machines. The research for 130 nm one is supposed to finish by mid-2026.
There is some confusion here. And I heard only about Russian investment into lithography machines and nothing about other machines.
The "nm" the Russians talk about in the lithography projects is the light source wavelength, it has nothing to do with semiconductor process and transistor size.
 

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member
The "nm" the Russians talk about in the lithography projects is the light source wavelength, it has nothing to do with semiconductor process and transistor size.
No, the 350 and 130 nms are about the nodes, not light source wavelengths. For example, the grant's name for the 350 nm litho machine is called:
Разработка, изготовление комплекта стендового оборудования, разработка и освоение в производстве установки и технологического процесса проекционного переноса изображений топологического рисунка ИС на пластину (Step&Repeat) в обеспечение производства ИС, ЭКБ с проектными нормами 350 нм
where the latter part is translated as
... allowing production of IC, ECB (electronic component base) with design standards of 350 nm
The 130 nm litho machine grant even explicitly mentions the development of 193 and 248 nm light sources, and separately that the litho machine should ensure minimum structural element sizes of 130 nm:
Разработка и изготовление установки проекционного переноса изображений топологического рисунка ИС на пластину (Step&Repeat) и источников излучения с длиной волны 193 и 248 нм, постановка базовых технологических процессов проекционного переноса изображений на пластину (Step&Repeat) с размером минимального конструкционного элемента 130 нм
Regarding the other machines - there were also grants for etching and ion implantation equipment plus maskless lithography.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
There is some confusion here. And I heard only about Russian investment into lithography machines and nothing about other machines.
The "nm" the Russians talk about in the lithography projects is the light source wavelength, it has nothing to do with semiconductor process and transistor size.
There is a lot of semiconductor manufacturing equipment that need to be made at those nodes. oxidation, implantation, etching, deposition, lithography, rapid thermal processing, annealing equipment,CMP, cleaning-wet processing, metrology, testing, packaging. And is not just one in every category, like for etching you have dielectric etching, oxide etching, metal etching. Multiple types of deposition equipment. Different types of metrology equipment, CD-SEM, thin film measurement, optical measurament. Lithography needs track equipment support, aligment equipment, coating, developing, ashing. And that is not counting silicon ingot- wafer making equipment Clean room equipment. ultraPure water processing and pure chemical delivery equipment.
Mask making, testing and repair equipment, but if they go maskless they will skip this.

The good news for the Russians is that they are not a big consumer of chips so their equipment does not has to be as performance as the ones the TSMC use, because they have to server a worldwide clients. But still is a lot of work.

1670893472731.png
CETC semiconductors, who already produce a lot of this equipment for military chip production could be an option for co-production but IDK, is a lot of equipment.
 

sndef888

Captain
Registered Member
Amidst this influx of negative propaganda and its amplification by trolls here, this is a good opportunity to recap some facts about the state of the industry
  • China has stockpiled foreign DUV lithography tools sufficient down to 7nm (as SMIC proved).
  • SMEE SSA800 will enter mass production next year and it is capable of 28nm.
  • An improvement/successor to the SSA 800 with a more powerful laser capable of 7nm is, according to the most knowledgeable poster in this thread by far, "around the corner."
  • SMEE and Huawei are confirmed to be developing EUV lithography tools (and I suspect they aren't alone) and "something"* is expected to emerge by 2025, barring unforeseen delays. So far, no delays of the sort have been noted.
  • ICRD is currently testing a completely indigenous 14nm production line.
In conclusion, if everything is cut off from China today, it has enough tools stockpiled to continue until domestic tools can pick up the slack. At worst, some expansion plans will have to be delayed by a year or two.

* What this "something" is, hopefully @WTAN will clarify. The most pessimistic reading of the post I quoted is that this has to do with the EUVL light source (the CO2 MOPA laser and tin droplet assembly). However, since that is the most difficult part of the machine, progress on this front will solve the most critical bottleneck China is facing.

It's almost certain that China is working on other parts of the device in parallel, and I'd speculate that they're farther along given that they can be tested by ICRD in synchrotrons or other non-commercial EUV light sources.
Any idea when next year SSA800 will enter production?

Looking at this summary it seems like the blitzkrieg is already over, now it's just simply attrition warfare
 
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