Chinese semiconductor industry

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tphuang

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@tphuang questioned the need for 7nm or better nodes in military applications like radar or EW.

I mentioned the Xilinx 7nm ACAP as an example of a COTS solution used in military applications: it happens to have a FPGA, but that’s only a part of its capabilities:
“Versal ACAPs combine scalar processing engines, adaptable hardware engines, intelligent engines with leading-edge memory and interfacing technologies to deliver powerful heterogeneous acceleration for any application beyond the capabilities of an FPGA.”

This is the sort of capability the US would like to stay ahead of China, which is why they are denying manufacturing tools to China for FinFETs or better. Reprogrammable FPGA have obvious benefits over ASICs: if you discover a bug down the road it is far cheaper to update an FPGA. If a new threat requires a different signal processing technique, it is again far cheaper to update the FPGA. This can even be done in-flight where a hardware swap or access to hardware may not be possible: think satellites.

According to the Microwave Journal, State-of-the-art fully digital cognitive radars require far more computing resources than possible from just a FPGA:
“New application areas add additional processing requirements. Cognitive radar applies artificial intelligence (AI) techniques to extract information about a target from a received signal, then uses the information to improve transmit frequency, waveform shape and pulse repetition frequency. Similarly, cognitive EW applies AI to identify patterns in the detected data to develop effective responses. Both cognitive radar and cognitive EW must execute their AI algorithms in near real-time. To do so, graphics processing units (GPUs) are added to RF processing, complementing the FPGAs that perform signal analysis and creation. Using many core processors is not the answer. While they can execute billions of instructions per second, they are not designed for low power consumption. They also need mixed-signal ICs and FPGAs for the RF interfaces, so a complete system requires a PCB.”

“Until recently, these multiple processing methods required distinct semiconductors, often assembled in a multi-board system. For RF applications, moving data from the ADC and DAC to centralized computing challenges data fidelity and latency. The current generation of converters are generating data bandwidths that overwhelm system interconnects, with transmission times that don’t support low latency radar and EW responses. This forces substantial data reduction before the central processor. To overcome these limitations, system architectures must move away from a centralized computing model to processing where the data is—at the tactical edge. Fortunately, new packaging technology helps solve that challenge.”

“RF edge processing requires multiple, tightly integrated functions working together to capture, analyze and manipulate a data stream in real time. Latency requirements favor ADCs and DACs that implement direct digital conversion. Efficient processing of the digital bit stream requires pipelined operations by some combination of FPGAs, GPUs and general-purpose processors. The components must connect via high bandwidth interconnects with low latency and be supplied with the required power. Everything must be assembled within a package small enough to be near the antenna.”

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You can get all the processing power you need on ground processing stations by just packing more processors. You don't need 7nm process to do so. The only difference is using some additional power. You also don't need 7nm to do advanced FPGA.

Nothing in a fighter jet or a missile need 7 nm process.

American gov't is denying manufacturing tools to China because we are run by a bunch of fools.
 

Zichan

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You can get all the processing power you need on ground processing stations by just packing more processors. You don't need 7nm process to do so. The only difference is using some additional power. You also don't need 7nm to do advanced FPGA.

Nothing in a fighter jet or a missile need 7 nm process.

American gov't is denying manufacturing tools to China because we are run by a bunch of fools.
I gave you an example where it is used. Ground stations will not save you. The data is far too large and needs to be processed on the edge. Technology evolves: just because a capability wasn’t “needed” 10 years ago, does not imply it is not needed today.

The bottom line is : the US military sees a need for it. They want to stay ahead of China in that capability for as long as possible. They are prepared to take a hit economically to maintain the advantage. I think it’s quite clear what their motives are.

Whether this is a winning strategy or not is a different question.
 

ZeEa5KPul

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"Additionally, SMIC has developed its 5 nm chips using locally produced lithographic machines and technologies and plan to build those chips by 2025."

Question, is this really accurate?
Of course it is, why would you doubt it? We know ICRD has access to EUV light sources and is developing the relevant technology. The issue is commercialization, which will happen by 2025.
 

theorlonator

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Of course it is, why would you doubt it? We know ICRD has access to EUV light sources and is developing the relevant technology. The issue is commercialization, which will happen by 2025.
Sorry I just didn't know. I was under the impression that ICRD was just at a fully domestic 14nm line. The snippet is about SMIC though.

I didn't know if ICRD had an EUV machine working for them.
 

tphuang

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I gave you an example where it is used. Ground stations will not save you. The data is far too large and needs to be processed on the edge. Technology evolves: just because a capability wasn’t “needed” 10 years ago, does not imply it is not needed today.

The bottom line is : the US military sees a need for it. They want to stay ahead of China in that capability for as long as possible. They are prepared to take a hit economically to maintain the advantage. I think it’s quite clear what their motives are.

Whether this is a winning strategy or not is a different question.

I mean several others have discussed this in the past, when it comes to platforms that are space constrained and need to deal with high speed and heat and really adverse environment, you need chips that are more rugged and 5/7 nm simply isn't like that. For example, what process do you think the ICP for F-35 uses? When we get to the point where 5/7 nm process can be made rugged, China will long have moved beyond that point.

Stuff that require the most advanced process are all going to be in ground stations. For those, you can just stack more chips.

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"Additionally, SMIC has developed its 5 nm chips using locally produced lithographic machines and technologies and plan to build those chips by 2025."

Question, is this really accurate?
Yeah, I mentioned this a few pages ago. This is not the first time state media have mentioned 5 nm for SMIC. I think it will be mass produced using ASML scanners by 2024. All Chinese production line probably will have to wait another year.

Long term, DUV solution really isn't going to be very economical. It's just what China has to live with since they have no other options. Hence the need for EUV post 2025.

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kind of interesting that one of SMIC's JV is doing IPO themselves
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SMIC, Shaoxing Government, and Shengyang Group together announced today the founding of the Semiconductor Manufacturing Electronics (Shaoxing) Corporation (planned) with joint capital contributions
 

gelgoog

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SMIC expanded like crazy initially and a lot of it was done via joint ventures with regional governments where those held the majority of shares. It happened back when Richard Chang was the CEO. SMIC divested out from most of these fabs though.

You guys are being terribly confused. ICRD does not have any EUV machines that I know of. They are supposedly testing SMEE DUV immersion prototype in production like environment. Those are still being tested at lab scale and last I heard only had 20 kW power light source although it might have improved since.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

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I mean several others have discussed this in the past, when it comes to platforms that are space constrained and need to deal with high speed and heat and really adverse environment, you need chips that are more rugged and 5/7 nm simply isn't like that. For example, what process do you think the ICP for F-35 uses? When we get to the point where 5/7 nm process can be made rugged, China will long have moved beyond that point.

Stuff that require the most advanced process are all going to be in ground stations. For those, you can just stack more chips.


Yeah, I mentioned this a few pages ago. This is not the first time state media have mentioned 5 nm for SMIC. I think it will be mass produced using ASML scanners by 2024. All Chinese production line probably will have to wait another year.

Long term, DUV solution really isn't going to be very economical. It's just what China has to live with since they have no other options. Hence the need for EUV post 2025.


kind of interesting that one of SMIC's JV is doing IPO themselves
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It's not just physical ruggedness, it's RADHARD requirements to prevent radiation damage not just from nuclear weapons but also from cosmic rays which have a much higher intensity at flight altitudes. This means a total rethink from the substrate onwards such as using SOI structure instead of direct on silicon, higher voltage tolerances, different materials, different packaging, redundancy, etc.

The most advanced RADHARD chips are 65 nm right now, but that's for only minor hardening by design. True RADHARD chips, which are RADHARD by process such as spacecraft grade, are 150 nm.

As for how important this is, Russians tried to cheap out by using merely RADHARD by design aerospace RAM instead of true spacecraft grade RADHARD by process RAM for Phobos Grunt in 2011. It failed.

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