Chinese semiconductor industry

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tphuang

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ASML - Investor Day 2022

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"We plan to increase our capacity to 90 Low-NA EUV and 600 DUV systems (2025-2026), while also ramping High-NA EUV capacity to 20 systems (2027-2028)"

"Intensified foundry competition could lead to period with overcapacity as players try to capture market share"

"Technological sovereignty and foundry competition create additional capacity resulting in ~10% inefficiency of the total wafer installed capacity by 2030"
Thanks for posting this. I've been saying these numbers recently. That honestly seems like too much and I think they will end up with too much capacity if Chinese lithography makers ramp up their production even to 100 DUVs a year (which I think is quite possible).

Even next year, basically everyone is cutting Capex (except maybe Chinese ones, lol). It seems unlikely to me that demand for EUV/DUV can double in 4 year when we are entering a major market downturn.

It does make me realize two things.
#1 in the market TSMC -> cut Capex in 2022 from 40 to 44 billion to 36 billion
#3 in the market UMC -> cut Capex in 2022 from 3.6 billion to 3 billion
#4 in the market Globalfoundries -> cut Capex in 2022 from from 4.5 billion to 3 to 3.3 billion
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#5 SMIC -> raised Capex in 2022 from 5 billion to 6.6 billion.

Hard to assess Samsung and Intel since they have other businesses, but Intel has cut their Capex also.

So from this, it appears to me that SMIC is pursuing a far more aggressive expansion path in advanced nodes (you don't need to spend much money <$1 billion if you are aggressively growing mature node as evident with Huahong earnings report). So, it looks to me that SMIC is taking delivery slots that its bigger competitors are cutting in order to stock up on ASML Arfi scanners as much as possible. Most of their $1.6 billion additional Capex is going toward ASML.

SMIC is a minnow in the market. If only SMIC is raising Capex, how does that support doubling in demand in 4 years?

Huh, it's also winter for everyone if he reads all article
It's amazing to me that SCMP continues to write shit like this. They are conflating three things:
1) General downturn in chip demand across the world
2) Too many startup chip firms in China in a short time -> a lot of them will inevitably fail
3) US sanctions

The vast majority of the issues they described in there have nothing to do with 3) and are all about 1) and 2). Like what's happening in NEV industry in China, it's absolutely healthy for tough market condition to force out the weak players in the market.

The fact that SMIC has increased its Capex should be a great indication of how much the sanctions are affecting them. Yes, ASML not being able to sell its latest Arfi scanners to China will actually affect advanced node production in China, but that hasn't happened.

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Depends. If the Chinese can buy those chips from the outside world or the figure out to made them on their own.

-If they can't get those chips from the outside world then the demand is gone. China is pretty much the biggest market for cutting edge chips, AI, EV and so on giving the goverment support. The U.S. is basically a slow adopter and they usually only invest in panic mode after seeing the Chinese advancing a very fast speed.

China made it on their own.
-China lithography industry take off. Chinese made DUV, immersion and EUV machines become mainstream in China.
-China is forced to find innovative ways to do AI. new materials, new techniques and advanced packaging.
-A combination of both.
I think ASML CEO is being too optimistic there. China is 50% of the chip market. China will find a way to produce chips. At worst, its products is slightly worse if it's constrained from purchasing certain chips.

Right now, China is undergoing the fastest ever buildup in mature node (especially industrial/auto grade power chips) production. Their domestic rate for mature rate will be very high by 2025. None of these node need ASML scanners. While ASML need to project a sense of confidence to the world/investors, it needs to know inside that these Chinese tools makers can easily chose to buy SMEE machines in the future. And it needs to work hard to keep its customers. Don't let the Dutch gov't be persuaded otherwise.

ASML has a significant role in the Chinese market as long as the Dutch gov't doesn't kneecap them.

As for AI/HPC chips, China has already shown it can build supercomputers with 14nm chips. I think SMIC is getting pushed by Chinese gov't secretively to raise it's advanced node production. Its N+1 process is advanced enough to field HPC/AI chips. Maybe they are going to be as good as Nvidia chips, but it can be close enough or just need more electricity to run. If 70% of HPC/AI chip demand in China ends up being produced by SMIC (due to further US sanctions), then it will be really easy for ASML to lose this market entirely if the Dutch gov't decides to cut China off. At the end of the day, even if ASML machines are better than SMEE machines now, SMEE machines of 2023/2024 are going to be good enough to produce 14nm chips.

Will be a huge and costly mistake from Chinese goverment if they leave this to the market to solve alone. They should come with full support and use this shift in the market as catalyst for the full localization and vertical integration of the Chinese semiconductor industry supply chain to secure it against this kind external attacks in the near future.
I think Chinese gov't is already helping chip makers so much. SMIC is spending $6.6 billion on Capex this year and it's only projecting to generating $7.3 billion in total revenue. It's spending more on Capex than UMC and GlobalFoundries combined! If not for the local gov't footing most of the bill, I don't see how else they can accomplish this. In fact, SMIC only has like 40% ownership of SMSC, which means Shanghai gov't is likely footing all the bills for Capex there.

Similarly, I'm willing to bet that Shanghai gov't is footing most of the bill for HLMC Capex (or maybe all of it). After all, Huahong raises 18 billion RMB from listing itself on Shanghai stock exchange and none of that money is going into HLMC. All of that is going into its own fabs at Wuxi and 8-inch ones in Shanghai. It doesn't even list HLMC performance in its earnings report. I bet the margins on those aren't great.

I think CR micros also go a great deal from Chongqing gov't in paying most of the Capex and still owning 75% of the JVs.

I'd be shocked if this isn't happening to tools makers also.
 

KYli

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China just needs a year or so for the latest expansions to be completed.
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In the Netherlands, home of ASML Holding NV, which has a virtual monopoly on a type of machine needed to make the most advanced chips, people familiar with the talks described the US as acting like a bully. Given ASML’s role as a linchpin of the $580 billion global chip industry, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte is due to visit semiconductor giant South Korea this week, when he’s said export controls will be high on the agenda.


The mood in Japan’s government, meanwhile, was said by an official to be one of bemusement that its sovereignty could be so disregarded. All the people asked not to be named as the discussions are ongoing.

“This package is replete with unilateral measures with very big assumptions that partners will follow the US’s lead,” said Reva Goujon, director of China corporate advisory at Rhodium Group. The “game changer” controls send an unmistakable signal of intent to Beijing while containing an implicit threat for partners, she said, since “the US is willing to go extra-territorial if they consider it important enough.”

US officials have repeatedly said export control rules will lose their effectiveness over time if partners don’t join in, but by effectively forcing governments to comply or face potential penalties, the US is alienating swing nations in Europe and Asia that are less willing to confront Beijing, whether for political or economic reasons. Consequently, there’s no sign of an imminent agreement.

US Secretary of Commerce Gina Raimondo told American firms that they will have to wait as long as nine months before Washington can seal a multilateral deal and level the playing field for them. Senior US officials including National Security Council Senior Director for Technology and National Security Tarun Chhabra are visiting the Netherlands for related talks this month, but an accord isn’t expected to come out of it.

The Biden administration believes it will be able to persuade the Netherlands and Japan because they share the US’s concern for national security, according to a person familiar with the talks. The negotiations will be difficult but the administration is optimistic it can reach a deal, though the timeline is unclear, according to the person. The tone of the talks have shifted since Oct. 7, after the White House made clear it’s willing to disadvantage American companies in the short term to further the countries’ joint national security interest.
 

tonyget

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Right now, China is undergoing the fastest ever buildup in mature node (especially industrial/auto grade power chips) production. Their domestic rate for mature rate will be very high by 2025. None of these node need ASML scanners. While ASML need to project a sense of confidence to the world/investors, it needs to know inside that these Chinese tools makers can easily chose to buy SMEE machines in the future. And it needs to work hard to keep its customers. Don't let the Dutch gov't be persuaded otherwise.

I know people in this thread talks alot about SMEE lithography machine. But so far I have not seen wide spread adoption of SMEE machines in Chinese fabs,at least not from public bidding informations. From public bidding infors,we can see the quick rise of domestic semi equipment across all categories,with the noticeable exception of lithography machine. Albeit many purchasing infors aren't made available to public,but it would be strange for fabs to disclose bidding infors for all domestic equipments except SMEE's lithography machine. So I would presume that for the undisclosed part of equipment purchasing,the domestic/imported ratio is roughly the same with disclosed part.

It makes sense for domestic equipment to replace imported ones in mature nodes by 2025,in areas like etching/deposition etc, because we can see the progress domestic equipment made in these areas via public bidding informations. For SMEE's lithography machine though,I don't see how it can bypass the gradual progress of gaining market,and dominate the Chinese market all of a sudden in 2025. That's not how the industry works.
 
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tphuang

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I know people in this thread talks alot about SMEE lithography machine. But so far I have not seen wide spread adoption of SMEE machines in Chinese fabs,at least not from public bidding informations. From public bidding infors,we can see the quick rise of domestic semi equipment across all categories,with the noticeable exception of lithography machine. Albeit many purchasing infors aren't made available to public,but it would be strange for fabs to disclose bidding infors for all domestic equipments except SMEE's lithography machine. So I would presume that for the undisclosed part of equipment purchasing,the domestic/imported ratio is roughly the same with disclosed part.
Have you seen many bidding for lithography machines in general? It seems like there is no real choice here. You either go with smee if you are worried by sanctions or you go with asml if you are not or you don't think smee can offer you a comparable product. Smic pretty much just signs contracts with asml without any kind of bidding process. Any large enough fab like smee or ymtc have to buy both to continue expansion and prepare for the contingency where asml isn't available.

Smic clearly just put in a huge order for asml and there was no bidding involved.
 

tonyget

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Have you seen many bidding for lithography machines in general?

Absolutely. I track bidding informations every week,and there is lithography machines on the list very frequently,and the eventual winner of the bidding is always ASML/Canon/Nikon/SUSS
 
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ansy1968

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do you seriously think CPC will leave them alone to solve all problems. never

actions have already been taken and CPC mobilized national resource to create chip ecosystem ..

Chinese President Xi Jinping stressed improving a new system for mobilizing China's nationwide resources to achieve breakthroughs in core technologies

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Edit - off topic i know but example is related to scale up capability of China. during Zhuhai air show, we get to know the J-20 production capacity and it was shocking. Chengdu is on the way to produce 100 plus stealth fighter jet per year after 2023. exactly 2 years ago it was a dream for Chinese aviation enthusiasts. Chinese naval construction began outpacing US naval construction in the 2010s in spite of people claiming it's impossible. Now Chinese aviation looks to be heading in that direction too.

once SMEE solve the technical issues of 28nm DUV. serial production of DUV will be exploded.
Bro what happen to Liu He and his given task regarding Semiconductors? any news?
 

crash8pilot

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Bro what happen to Liu He and his given task regarding Semiconductors? any news?
Without derailing the thread too far off topic, I have a gut feeling Liu He succeeds Wang Qishan as Vice President next March so that he can continue to steer policymaking in regards to semiconductor + tech + innovation developments as well as trade/foreign policy.
 

tokenanalyst

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do you seriously think CPC will leave them alone to solve all problems. never

actions have already been taken and CPC mobilized national resource to create chip ecosystem ..

Chinese President Xi Jinping stressed improving a new system for mobilizing China's nationwide resources to achieve breakthroughs in core technologies

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I think since 2018 most of the investment in the Chinese semiconductor industry has come from private capital rather than goverment investment. The problem is that is what the Americans are attacking no the goverment investment that is growing vertically integrated. For example in SIC and other wide band-gap semis.

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The US is trying to carpet bomb the civilian population under the suspicion that they may help the military. So that is why I said the should see this as a war act and act as such.

It makes sense for domestic equipment to replace imported ones in mature nodes by 2025,in areas like etching/deposition etc, because we can see the progress domestic equipment made in these areas via public bidding informations. For SMEE's lithography machine though,I don't see how it can bypass the gradual progress of gaining market,and dominate the Chinese market all of a sudden in 2025. That's not how the industry works.
Well if you have no options you have to make it work.
 
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