Chinese semiconductor industry

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ZeEa5KPul

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Renouncing US citizenship is taking time and expensive. Anyway I think records of citizenship renouncement is public so we can see this latter.
I don't like the line of argument I'm about to present because it gives the US legal system credit and I don't want to do that, but there's no way in the nine circles of Hell this is constitutional. The US government can't just yank your citizenship on a whim and this "rule" will be laughed out of any court if it's challenged.
It's like around $2000 or so last time I checked. Not cheap but if you don't live there and haven't for a while, it's not prohibitive.
They wouldn't have to renounce it. Just have the government revoke it and then challenge that in court if they're so inclined.
 

theorlonator

Junior Member
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I don't like the line of argument I'm about to present because it gives the US legal system credit and I don't want to do that, but there's no way in the nine circles of Hell this is constitutional. The US government can't just yank your citizenship on a whim and this "rule" will be laughed out of any court if it's challenged.

They wouldn't have to renounce it. Just have the government revoke it and then challenge that in court if they're so inclined.
The US isn't threatening to remove citizenship, I think you'd just pay fines if they decide to prosecute you or jail.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
The US isn't threatening to remove citizenship, I think you'd just pay fines if they decide to prosecute you or jail.
Then it'll be exactly like the "China Initiative" - a bunch of cases laughed out of court. If the Chinese government wants to be helpful, it can offer to pay American employees' legal fees if they're prosecuted under this rule. Let the US government try to prove these people were working in Chinese companies with restricted technology.

Prosecutor: What were you doing in China? How did you make all this money?
Defendant: I was a gigolo. Prove otherwise.
 

theorlonator

Junior Member
Registered Member
Then it'll be exactly like the "China Initiative" - a bunch of cases laughed out of court. If the Chinese government wants to be helpful, it can offer to pay American employees' legal fees if they're prosecuted under this rule. Let the US government try to prove these people were working in Chinese companies with restricted technology.

Prosecutor: What were you doing in China? How did you make all this money?
Defendant: I was a gigolo. Prove otherwise.
I seriously doubt how they can enforce this seriously, but still Chinese companies might choose just not to deal with Americans in the first place. If you're American you have to declare your income overseas so I wonder if they can get you that way. I wonder if you can play some obfuscation games here.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
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The vast majority of components are not wear components. In a car, you don't expect to replace an automotive computer, seats, steering wheel, etc. for instance. even the engine is not replaced despite the engine being the critical component and exposed to the extreme conditions of heat, mechanical stress, chemicals, etc.

The wear parts for an etch chamber for instance are the vacuum facing components, which will be treated with specialized plasma corrosion resistant coatings like Y2O3. you have specialized cleaning gases and processes for routine maintenance that are 3rd party provided, and for major cleans or refurbishes you take the tool down and outsource the cleaning to another 3rd party.
exactly this machines are made to last and they have very low downtime, but the most concerning thing are cloud services or data analytics services.

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caudaceus

Senior Member
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The vast majority of components are not wear components. In a car, you don't expect to replace an automotive computer, seats, steering wheel, etc. for instance. even the engine is not replaced despite the engine being the critical component and exposed to the extreme conditions of heat, mechanical stress, chemicals, etc.

The wear parts for an etch chamber for instance are the vacuum facing components, which will be treated with specialized plasma corrosion resistant coatings like Y2O3. you have specialized cleaning gases and processes for routine maintenance that are 3rd party provided, and for major cleans or refurbishes you take the tool down and outsource the cleaning to another 3rd party.

Just so you know, many analog fabs have equipment from the 1990s still running with 0 vendor support for decades.
Can they brick the tools by denying firmware updates or something like that?
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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Can they brick the tools by denying firmware updates or something like that?
I don't know for sure but for things like etch or deposition tools the controls aren't that complicated. You can even buy a working controller box on eBay.

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As someone who is both in the field (but on the chemistry/materials side) and also tinkers with electronics for fun, I don't see the tools being particularly hard to control on their own, even if you had to make a controller box from scratch with a Raspberry Pi, as long as you knew the pinouts of the cables.

What does an oven, etch or deposition chamber really need?

1. Temperature I/O. You have X channels, usually 1-6, of solid state relay output for heating and equal channels for thermocouple input. Let's call that 2 DB-9 cables: a local serial thermocouple ADC that sends RS232 signals, and 6 solid state relay control signals.

2. Valve open/close. 1 relay channel for each valve. Let's say you have an ALD process. You need at least 2 precursor channels, inert gas purge channel, a vacuum pump valve channel, load lock valve channel. Call it 9 channels to be safe. Controllable via a DB9 cable too.

3. Programming. It's just PID loops. Basically, you have to be able to set a temperature profile (X degrees by X time then hold). For etch or deposition you may need to couple it with a external end point signal like a spectrometer or QCM. That's a bit harder but many of the controllers have programmable end points where they'd send a known signal, like a relay closure at end point, continuous analog data or continuous RS-232 data, to the PLC.

So you can probably buy the controllers directly from 3rd parties or hire an EE (which I am not) to make you a box as a 6 month to 1 year project, as long as you know the pinouts or original cabling.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
IDK about that cloud software stuff, it's way beyond my pay grade. Is that just for integration with the rest of the fab?

Data Analytics​


KLA’s data analytics systems centralize and analyze the data produced by inspection, metrology and process systems. Using advanced data analysis, modeling and visualization capabilities, our comprehensive suite of data analytics products support applications such as run-time process control, defect excursion identification, wafer and reticle dispositioning, scanner and process corrections, and defect classification. By providing chip and wafer manufacturers with relevant root cause information, our data management and analysis systems accelerate yield learning rates and reduce production risk.

The word centralize means they may be using computing servers somewhere to analyze the data maybe to fine tune the processes of the fab or to decrease the time of defects findings. If this is a timely paid service, that means that the serves could be shut down at any moment.
 
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