Chinese semiconductor industry

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proelite

proelite

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european_guy said:
NAURA is in the "unverified" list, together with YMTC, they will eventually end up in the entity list in few months.

I agree US final goal is total decoupling in semiconductors, like it is in space technology.....but here it will be much more difficult for them to reach the target.

I have the impression (they give me the impression) that they are so scared to compete with China, that they prefer to not compete, split the market, I have mine you have yours, and call it a day. Very sad for such a leader like US to think like this...but here is where we are.
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Of course, we're scared to compete. We have half the amount of stem grads and most of them want to work in software. We're too woke to do needs based immigration and too racist to increase immigration rate. American manual labor is not competitive. I have heard that our economy is basically propped up by the power of the dollar but idk if that's true or not.
 
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

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paiemon said:
I agree, in the Chinese market unfortunately their government has sunk their reputation badly unless they manufacture locally. Given everything I agree Chinese companies will go for domestic firms wherever possible, but I still see the US firms having a decent market presence, just not the near total monopoly they have now. I wouldn't be surprised as domestic firms scale if US firms end up localizing supply chain, manufacturing and other key operations similar to ARM China to retain a smaller, yet still lucrative market share or end up with a series of safe harbor countries where they move operations to serve the Chinese market.

I think the key thing is that as domestic firms increase their presence in the market segements, US firms lose the leading edge/near monopoly position they currently hold and therefore the ability of the US government to weaponize them is removed. That in a nutshell is what the US government has done. Once China has companies of comparable scale and offerings, US companies operating in the same market can still be useful as a competitive benchmark that contributes to the development of local industry similar to what Tesla and Apple provide.
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Lam Research now has their biggest site in Malaysia. Not Asian site... any site.

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proelite

proelite

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theorlonator said:
I just wonder whether China can retaliate meaningfully against the US.
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Put tariffs against US hardware that uses foreign components when domestic substitutes is available. Grant domestic companies exemption against tariffs for non-domestic products so that they can remain competitive globally.

In short if you want to do business in China you use Chinese goods.
 
Quickie

Quickie

Colonel
theorlonator said:
They seem like a way to guarantee no such meeting
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That is exactly what I thought.

By now the U.S. admin should know already the Chinese just do not give in to this kind of shit.

The U.S. was doing the same with their carrot of "about to cancel the tariffs on certain Chinese goods" during Nancy Pelosi visit's to Taiwan expecting China to tone down on their response. Instead, China responded with the unprecedented largest military drill around Taiwan.
 
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latenlazy

Brigadier
hvpc said:
A 0.8NA + immersion will not be enough to support 28nm. You'd need double patterning with this low NA optics.

I think the 0.82 NA lens must be for the SSB800 KrF scanner.

But if your interpretation of 0.82NA+immersion for the immersion scanner is correct, the effective NA would be 1.16. At this effective NA, this immersion system would not be able to support 28nm production; well not without needing to adopt double patterning.

Personally, I'm not as worried about the laser. With the slower UPrecision stage, a 40W 4Khz laser is enough. I think the readiness of 1.35 NA Optics would be a bigger concern.
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As usual, the optics are not the constraint. Optical design is straightforward, but going higher NA is pointless if your beam is more diffuse, so the constraint is laser power. This is why you never see an instrument going higher NA without adopting a more powerful light source first.
 
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european_guy

Junior Member
Registered Member
tokenanalyst said:
Is always been like that, for some reason memory is the first thing to go in a downturn.
Do you think this growth has been accelerated by hoarding because the sanctions.

I saw that they have been buying and testing metrology equipment from local players including Optical, SEM and so on, let see, only pressure makes diamonds. There is one new player that will launch a series of metrology equipment for NAND at the end of this year that could probably help them.
View attachment 99028
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For people interested in understanding this fascinating topic, I found
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from Huazhong University of Science and Technology that explains what these machines do.

BTW Huazhong Institute of Optoelectronics Technology is already
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, so they must be good.
 
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Minm

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The most important restriction may be that US persons can't work for the Chinese semiconductor industry anymore. That may become a problem for NAURA as well. China has always benefited from returning Chinese people who gained expertise in the west.

At the same time, this incentivises all international and even US companies to avoid hiring Americans in their China business. They're cutting themselves off from the world

Chinese chip companies are even more concerned about Washington’s attempts to bar US citizens from supporting them. “That is a bigger bombshell than stopping us from buying equipment,” said a human resources executive at a state-backed semiconductor plant. “We do have [US passport holders] in our company, in some of the most important positions,” she said, calling them a “core weapon” for developing technology. “We need to find a way for these people to continue working for our company. This is very difficult. Most people are not willing to give up their US passports.” Most US citizens in the Chinese chip sector are Chinese and Taiwanese returnees from the US. There are no statistics on the size of this group. But a Taiwanese intelligence official estimated that as many as 200 US passport holders worked in Chinese semiconductor companies. And the restrictions extend beyond that group. An executive at a semiconductor materials supplier said his company would have to replace all American sales and technical support staff sent to Chinese customers.
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european_guy

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Minm said:
The most important restriction may be that US persons can't work for the Chinese semiconductor industry anymore. That may become a problem for NAURA as well. China has always benefited from returning Chinese people who gained expertise in the west.

At the same time, this incentivises all international and even US companies to avoid hiring Americans in their China business. They're cutting themselves off from the world




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First of all, the Financial Times is ultra-biased, they push articles from their alternate reality.

The first impact will be that US companies "will have to replace all American sales and technical support staff sent to Chinese customers", where "to replace" it means to train and pass down the required knowledge to local, Chinese people instead. So this clearly will go against the original idea of US administration.

Finally, regarding Chinese top talent with US passport, usually these guys are also shareholders and top executives of the local company, when instead they were just employees at their US old firms. Taking for grant that they will give up being key executive and shareholder of a rising company to just go back to work in US under a random boss, just because of the precious passport is very assuming. Withouth even considering that they are Chinese! Passport is a piece of paper, is not who you are.
 
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