Chinese semiconductor industry

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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
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In theory yes. They will do it? no, that is why I said they are better capitalists than the capitalist themselves and the effectiveness of such ban will be questionable at best. Having a monopoly on rare earths give the Chinese unprecedented power on the global supply and the price of such materials, why they want to ruin that?
There's that argument, but on the other hand if you're completely unwilling to use coercive means, your adversaries are just going to walk all over you. What use is power if you're unwilling to exercise it?

Deep down, the clowns in the US formulating these policies know that China will eventually have a world class indigenous semiconductor industry, the point is to make the road there as arduous as possible. Similarly, China knows that if it banned rare earth exports then eventually supply would appear elsewhere, but the point is make life as painful as possible for the US in the meantime.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think the description of what OCD equipment should do. make sure that the critical layers of your chip have de right dimensions and orientations using the diffraction of light.
View attachment 96659
Lol if this was to scale AFM and TEM throughput would be near the rock bottom while CD SEM and OCD are way higher.

To say that AFM or TEM have low throughput is an understatement. They're analytical, not QC, techniques. You need an actual scientist prepping samples and running them, in return you can get extremely high quality R&D grade data.
 

weig2000

Captain
Interesting comments from Synopsys' Chief Strategy Officer.

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Synopsys’ Chief Strategy Officer: Only the Chinese mainland and Taiwan have all the conditions for setting up a fab​


By Li Panpan

Synopsys’ chief strategy officer Antonio Varas said only the Chinese mainland and Taiwan have all the conditions for setting up a fab in a recent video interview with the Spanish paper El País.

He said that TSMC produces 90% of the world’s advanced process chips below 10nm. If there were a Taiwan Straits military conflict, factories around the world may be forced to shut down for three weeks to three months depending on the chip inventory, reported the Spanish paper.

EU passed its Chips Act in February to ensure semiconductor supply resilience and reduce international dependence. Spain plans to invest 12 billion euros in developing the semiconductor industry. The recent signing of the chip bill in the United States will also involve investing $52 billion in fab subsidies.

But Antonio Varas said that it takes several years for a fab to go from planning to mass production, and the semiconductor industry usually forms close cooperation with upstream and downstream manufacturers in the form of industrial clusters. In theory, semiconductor factories can be located worldwide, but in practice, they can only be found in areas with low-cost water and electricity, close to airports, and manufacturers willing to be subsidized. Spain may meet the above environmental conditions, but there is a shortage of high-tech talents. The Chinese mainland and Taiwan meet all the requirements. Whether the United States has the resources required for the semiconductor industry is still to be confirmed. Especially in terms of talents, it is also necessary to plan for talent training and attract overseas talents.

Antonio Varas also noted that the West’s promotion of the development of the semiconductor industry not only considers factors such as the impact of production cuts by manufacturers in the Taiwan region or other military threats but also considers the global market demand. While demand for PCs may taper off in the short term, demand for chips from the smartphone, server, manufacturing, defense, and automotive industries will continue to grow. For example, car sales have not grown, but the increasing number of chips required in each car drives the demand in the automotive semiconductor market.

The investment goal of the semiconductor industry in Western countries is not only self-sufficiency but the establishment of diversified supply sources. The medium and long-term policy goal is to produce most of the chip production capacity outside the Taiwan region, and to avoid too much dependence on Japanese and South Korean companies adjacent to North Korea and China, added him.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
The Japanese are too proud to be in an alliance with China because that would make them the junior partner. They submit to the US, because the US dropped the atomic bomb on them.

Commercially it makes sense for Japan to sell all manner of sophisticated manufacturing equipment and components to Chinese purchasers. China is still willing to permit market share to them even in the long term future, even when there will be commercially competitive Chinese competitors. But that window is closing and it will eventually close totally if Japan joins the United States in economic warfare against China.
that's cool. Nikon and Canon are on life support already, TEL is OK for now only because the pie is so big but their Chinese competitors - AMEC (etch), Naura (deposition) and ACM Research (cleaning) are all growing at double digit % so their days are numbered if they ban themselves from China.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
There's that argument, but on the other hand if you're completely unwilling to use coercive means, your adversaries are just going to walk all over you. What use is power if you're unwilling to exercise it?

Deep down, the clowns in the US formulating these policies know that China will eventually have a world class indigenous semiconductor industry, the point is to make the road there as arduous as possible. Similarly, China knows that if it banned rare earth exports then eventually supply would appear elsewhere, but the point is make life as painful as possible for the US in the meantime.
That should be in the case of a extreme event, in the meanwhile i think would be wise to keep your monopoly as long as possible such in the case of a extreme event you use your power full force and be in an incredible advantage over everyone else. Instead of depleting your arsenal by banning sales to "this company or that company" making your costumers to look for alternatives while at the same time still having access to your damn product. Is kind of baffling to see Americans slowly depleting their semiconductor arsenal in a relative normal business environment, when there is not extreme event happening. I think logic dictated that any high IQ U.S. politician will it want to keep their monopoly on EDA, tools, ICs and IP as long as possible, even if that means to keep the Chinese hook on U.S. products. I fail to see why any high IQ U.S politician would not want a company like Huawei to be addicted to buying qorvo or qualcomm chips or SMIC to be addicted to buying KLA equipment so in that way keeping the U.S. monopoly on the critical items in the industry until that extreme event happen. But a high IQ American politician is like the Yeti or Big foot, everybody says they exist but nobody has found one yet.​
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
The metrology field has been growing fast in China in the last few years.

CD-SEM
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X-Ray CD
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Optical CD.
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And that is not counting the ones in who do equipment metrology in packaging
I am very impressed that China has XRD, XRR and TXRF process metrology supplier. This is one of the highest levels of difficulty of metrology equipment next to the high vacuum/particle beam techniques like CD-SEM.

the difficulty is in the monochromatic X-ray beam, the precision position control (0.01 degrees accuracy!) and a high sensitivity detector.

More mask CD metrology

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Chemical metrology (ICP-MS triple quad)

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tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
I am very impressed that China has XRD, XRR and TXRF process metrology supplier. This is one of the highest levels of difficulty of metrology equipment next to the high vacuum/particle beam techniques like CD-SEM.

the difficulty is in the monochromatic X-ray beam, the precision position control (0.01 degrees accuracy!) and a high sensitivity detector.

More mask CD metrology

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Chemical metrology (ICP-MS triple quad)

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Is impressive and not surprising because the people who created that company come from the University of Science and Technology of China and they seem have years researching XRay physics.


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Hefei Synchrotron Radiation Facility​


Hefei Synchrotron Radiation Facility is the first dedicated synchrotron radiation facility in China, which locates on the West Campus of the University of Science and Technology of China (USTC), in Hefei, Anhui Province.
It is one of the key issues of China’s investments on large-scale scientific research facilities. Its construction began on Nov. 20, 1984, and completed with a national review in Dec. 1991. After Phase II Project from 1999 to 2004 and Upgrading from 2012 to 2014, NSRL now owns a fully upgraded soft X-ray synchrotron radiation facility. The synchrotron is close to the 3rd generation level, and the facility is now with five ready-to-use endstations: combustion and flame, soft X-ray microscopy, catalysis and surface science, angle resolved photo-emission spectroscopy, atomic and molecular physics. It has six other beamlines now open for future endstations.
The superior radiation, together with the well-designed beamlines and endstations, allow national-wide scientists to perform cutting edge scientific experiments, which are otherwise impossible in their home laboratories. The researches cover physics, chemistry, life sciences, material sciences, surface sciences, metrology, medicine, microscopy, instrumentation, and so on.
As a government supported, user-oriented large-scale scientific facility, we enthusiastically welcome researchers from various fields coming to carry out your state-of-the-art research with us.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
That should be in the case of a extreme event, in the meanwhile i think would be wise to keep your monopoly as long as possible such in the case of a extreme event you use your power full force and be in an incredible advantage over everyone else. Instead of depleting your arsenal by banning sales to "this company or that company" making your costumers to look for alternatives while at the same time still having access to your damn product. Is kind of baffling to see Americans slowly depleting their semiconductor arsenal in a relative normal business environment, when there is not extreme event happening. I think logic dictated that any high IQ U.S. politician will it want to keep their monopoly on EDA, tools, ICs and IP as long as possible, even if that means to keep the Chinese hook on U.S. products. I fail to see why any high IQ U.S politician would not want a company like Huawei to be addicted to buying qorvo or qualcomm chips or SMIC to be addicted to buying KLA equipment so in that way keeping the U.S. monopoly on the critical items in the industry until that extreme event happen. But a high IQ American politician is like the Yeti or Big foot, everybody says they exist but nobody has found one yet.​
Perhaps I give US politicians more credit than I should, but another interpretation is that they know it's impossible for China to remain hooked on US technology forever. That was a government goal long before Trump launched the tech war. They know that eventually China will achieve self-sufficiency, so they figure it's best for them to get their shots in while they can and make life as difficult as they can for China. Incidentally, that's the mirror image of my view about rare earths - they'll figure it out sooner or later and at least ameliorate their China addiction, so it makes sense for China to land its punches while they still hurt.
 

Pkp88

Junior Member
Registered Member
Perhaps I give US politicians more credit than I should, but another interpretation is that they know it's impossible for China to remain hooked on US technology forever. That was a government goal long before Trump launched the tech war. They know that eventually China will achieve self-sufficiency, so they figure it's best for them to get their shots in while they can and make life as difficult as they can for China. Incidentally, that's the mirror image of my view about rare earths - they'll figure it out sooner or later and at least ameliorate their China addiction, so it makes sense for China to land its punches while they still hurt.
I don’t think these philosophical discussions really help. No one is coming to the rescue for Chinese tech - the US has a chokehold and it’s doubtful others have the boldness (or market share) to take it on.

China is really alone in this until they demonstrate something significant. Hence my dismissiveness toward copium arguments and desire to focus on concrete progress. That table plus the EDA, material inputs is what matters - copium is over along with the idea US will relax (just ask the sanction world).
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
I don’t think these philosophical discussions really help. No one is coming to the rescue for Chinese tech - the US has a chokehold and it’s doubtful others have the boldness (or market share) to take it on.
What gave you the impression this is a philosophical discussion? This is about economic warfare. And what gave you the impression that I expect someone to come to the rescue of Chinese tech? China is coming to the rescue of Chinese tech. It would be helpful if you could address what I actually write or, failing that, refrain from quoting my posts entirely.
China is really alone in this until they demonstrate something significant. Hence my dismissiveness toward copium arguments and desire to focus on concrete progress. That table plus the EDA, material inputs is what matters - copium is over along with the idea US will relax (just ask the sanction world).
Just because you're unaware of things happening doesn't mean they aren't happening.
 
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