Chinese semiconductor industry

ansy1968 said:

bro The CCP are BRUTAL, they reacted to these ban as IF they are trolling the Americans....lol

Click to expand...

This ban of GAAFET technologies and related EDA software seems totally useless and moot.

GAAFET will be used for sub 3nm nodes, and you need EUV for this anyhow.

For when China will have EUV, for sure they will have by long time already developed GAAFET capable EDA tools.

The only possible impact that I am able to see is that it will cut-out Chinese companies from using advanced foundry services from TSMC and Samsung. Currently only Huawei is banned from using TSMC, but with this GAAFET trick, they will implicitly avoid that Chinese firms can go to TSMC for advanced nodes.

Anyhow this GAAFET technology is still 3-4 years down the road, by then, I am very convinced that US will find a way to ban TSMC advanced foundry services for Chinese firms anyhow.

I rarely see bidding infos from the likes of CanSemi/CXMT/Silan/Nexchip/SMEI etc. Do they not buying any equipment or what

european_guy said:

This ban of GAAFET technologies and related EDA software seems totally useless and moot.

GAAFET will be used for sub 3nm nodes, and you need EUV for this anyhow.

For when China will have EUV, for sure they will have by long time already developed GAAFET capable EDA tools.

The only possible impact that I am able to see is that it will cut-out Chinese companies from using advanced foundry services from TSMC and Samsung. Currently only Huawei is banned from using TSMC, but with this GAAFET trick, they will implicitly avoid that Chinese firms can go to TSMC for advanced nodes.

Anyhow this GAAFET technology is still 3-4 years down the road, by then, I am very convinced that US will find a way to ban TSMC advanced foundry services for Chinese firms anyhow.

Click to expand...

the banning of GAAFET for china can stop chinese chip designers to design 2nm that can be fab by TSMC

european_guy said:

This ban of GAAFET technologies and related EDA software seems totally useless and moot.

GAAFET will be used for sub 3nm nodes, and you need EUV for this anyhow.

For when China will have EUV, for sure they will have by long time already developed GAAFET capable EDA tools.

The only possible impact that I am able to see is that it will cut-out Chinese companies from using advanced foundry services from TSMC and Samsung. Currently only Huawei is banned from using TSMC, but with this GAAFET trick, they will implicitly avoid that Chinese firms can go to TSMC for advanced nodes.

Anyhow this GAAFET technology is still 3-4 years down the road, by then, I am very convinced that US will find a way to ban TSMC advanced foundry services for Chinese firms anyhow.

Click to expand...

bro I repost @mossen post from Scientific and technological thread, And you're correct the main target of the Chip Act is not China BUT TSMC and Samsung.

Like China or against China?​

But almost from the beginning, the fact that the U.S. would now provide subsidies, like China, became confused with the idea that the CHIPS Act was about competing or countering China in the semiconductor space. Even in the run-up to the bill’s signing ceremony, talked about boosting U.S. competitiveness with China in the semiconductor arena: In the hyper anti-China atmosphere in Washington, that sounded better than “matching China’s subsidies,” which was unlikely to happen in any case. The competing and countering narrative has been repeated over and over by various parties over the past year.

The only problem with this is that the U.S. is not really in a competition with China in any subsector of the vast semiconductor industry. None. Nada. And not for the foreseeable future, either, except maybe in one area of the memory sector — but even here, the main competitors for U.S. firms are South Korean, not Chinese.

As I wrote in a , Chinese firms are heavily dependent on imports of semiconductors across the board: Imports accounted for over $400 billion in 2021 and have been going up, not down. China is a long way from being capable of significantly exporting domestically developed chips. Chinese firms are even further behind their Western counterparts in all areas of semiconductor-manufacturing equipment.

And the CHIPS Act is also not about countering China, because the bulk of the funding is directed at attracting advanced manufacturing companies — TSMC and Samsung, for example — which never had plans to bring cutting-edge processes to China.

The initial and continued focus of Congress’s push to fund the CHIPS Act is, in fact, cutting-edge semiconductors, below the 7 nanometer (nm) node. Currently, and for the foreseeable future, there are zero Chinese companies that will compete in this space.

The real China connection to the CHIPS Act is actually all about Taiwan, and specifically TSMC. Washington realized in 2019 and 2020 that TSMC was responsible for over 90% of advanced chip manufacturing and over 50% of global foundry capacity. In addition, Washington national security hawks were convinced that Xí Jìnpíng 习近平 intended to act on Taiwan by 2027 or 2030, despite no evidence that Xi or China had, or have, a timetable for reunification. The need to replicate some of the capacity that TSMC commands on U.S. soil, before an escalation between China and Taiwan could potentially remove that capacity from the global market, became the real driving issue behind the new legislation: U.S. Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo has

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“untenable and unsafe,” and a “Sputnik moment for America.”

mossen said:

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The new CHIPS and Science Act will help America advance its indigenous semiconductor industry. But it’s not going to make the U.S. any less dependent on Taiwan or any more competitive with China, argues Paul Triolo.
supchina.com
Immediatedly after the act was signed, Micron among others slashed their capex by billions of dollars. I suspect many of them will just cash the money and do stock buybacks.

horse said:

Of all the bans, from the Americans trying to subvert Chinese progress in supercomputers, telecommunications, space exploration, and semiconductors, this has to be the worst and dumbest one of all.

All it is, it is software. Just lines and lines of code.

They actually know what that code is suppose to do. Monkey see, monkey do, you know. If Synopsys software has this feature, just code it in.

Problem solved. Where are they gonna find those coders? It's China. Everyone takes math. Lots of geeky computer programmers too. They don't write spaghetti code!

What this software does, it kind of integrates the entire production line. Besides using it to design the chip, the software must work with the equipment. I could be wrong here, since I am not an expert.

It seems like common sense, that if the EDA is capable of doing a 1 billion circuit design, then there has to be a way to interface with the machine to do that in production. No human can do it. It is all machines and software.

The EDA is kind of like the brain of the entire system. It has to work with all parts of it.

At this point, no American EDA means it is completely pointless for Chinese IC companies to try to buy some American machine for IC.

The US government is legislating all US companies IC equipment makers out of the China market with this EDA ban.

Why?

Give it a few months at the most, and they would have pirated or replaced this EDA.

The US government is utterly clueless when it comes to this stuff. Their prized results are:- no more China market, corporate welfare for Intel, and overcapacity.

Like, duh!

Click to expand...

Doesn't it seem like American "STRATEGISTS" are flailing their arms like they have no idea what they are doing? Everybody knows the Americans are trying to contain China by hobbling it with critical technology chokepoints to bottleneck its growth. This is a failed strategy, a very very obvious failure. What worries me is if this is a sign of bureaucratic ideological inertia. If this is the case, then it is likely this will escalate uncontrolled because the American side have become delusional, are controlled by the deluded and will not accept any outcome other than what they hope. Meaning, they will continue to adjust their strategy ever more insanely to achieve what they could not achieve with the last insane strategy.

China is already working on packaging 14nm node 2.5/3D chiplets with almost completely domestic equipment. If this capability is ready by say 2024, then all these sanctions are doing is forcing China's remaining foreign semicon equipment loving holdouts to become domestic buyers. It's so dumb, it almost looks like the CPC has infiltrated the American government.

horse said:

Of all the bans, from the Americans trying to subvert Chinese progress in supercomputers, telecommunications, space exploration, and semiconductors, this has to be the worst and dumbest one of all.

All it is, it is software. Just lines and lines of code.

They actually know what that code is suppose to do. Monkey see, monkey do, you know. If Synopsys software has this feature, just code it in.

Problem solved. Where are they gonna find those coders? It's China. Everyone takes math. Lots of geeky computer programmers too. They don't write spaghetti code!

What this software does, it kind of integrates the entire production line. Besides using it to design the chip, the software must work with the equipment. I could be wrong here, since I am not an expert.

It seems like common sense, that if the EDA is capable of doing a 1 billion circuit design, then there has to be a way to interface with the machine to do that in production. No human can do it. It is all machines and software.

The EDA is kind of like the brain of the entire system. It has to work with all parts of it.

At this point, no American EDA means it is completely pointless for Chinese IC companies to try to buy some American machine for IC.

The US government is legislating all US companies IC equipment makers out of the China market with this EDA ban.

Why?

Give it a few months at the most, and they would have pirated or replaced this EDA.

The US government is utterly clueless when it comes to this stuff. Their prized results are:- no more China market, corporate welfare for Intel, and overcapacity.

Like, duh!

Click to expand...

Doesn't it seem like American "STRATEGISTS" are flailing their arms like they have no idea what they are doing? Everybody knows the Americans are trying to contain China by hobbling it with critical technology chokepoints to bottleneck its growth. This is a failed strategy, a very very obvious failure. What worries me is if this is a sign of bureaucratic ideological inertia. If this is the case, then it is likely this will escalate uncontrolled because the American side have become delusional, are controlled by the deluded and will not accept any outcome other than what they hope. Meaning, they will continue to adjust their strategy ever more insanely to achieve what they could not achieve with the last insane strategy.

China is already working on packaging 14nm node 2.5/3D chiplets with almost completely domestic equipment. If this capability is ready by say 2024, then all these sanctions are doing is forcing China's remaining foreign semicon equipment loving holdouts to become domestic buyers. It's so dumb, it almost looks like the CPC has infiltrated the American government.

Any news about lithography?

Jianguo said:

Doesn't it seem like American "STRATEGISTS" are flailing their arms like they have no idea what they are doing? Everybody knows the Americans are trying to contain China by hobbling it with critical technology chokepoints to bottleneck its growth. This is a failed strategy, a very very obvious failure. What worries me is if this is a sign of bureaucratic ideological inertia. If this is the case, then it is likely this will escalate uncontrolled because the American side have become delusional, are controlled by the deluded and will not accept any outcome other than what they hope. Meaning, they will continue to adjust their strategy ever more insanely to achieve what they could not achieve with the last insane strategy.

Click to expand...

All is fair in competition, Both countries are vulnerable as they rely on others BUT as you said what is the best strategy to use. China had the confidence to compete as they rely on the whole nation approach and leverage its huge market while the US instead of trusting its friends and the trade system they created want to destroy, rewrite and control it. The effect is the opposite of what the American desire.

Jianguo said:

China is already working on packaging 14nm node 2.5/3D chiplets with almost completely domestic equipment. If this capability is ready by say 2024, then all these sanctions are doing is forcing China's remaining foreign semicon equipment loving holdouts to become domestic buyers. It's so dumb, it almost looks like the CPC has infiltrated the American government.

Click to expand...

Domestic 14nm line is done and dusted by 2024 a 7nm domestic line will be humming. And IF you want evidence , please wait for the Return of the King in 2023.

resistance said:

Any news about lithography?

Click to expand...

bro there is a search button on the right please type @siegecrossbow name and you will read the latest update, IF you want more detail please read @WTAN ,@tokenanalyst , @Oldschool ,@FairAndUnbiased ,@olalavn and @PopularScience post.

ansy1968 said:

bro I repost @mossen post from Scientific and technological thread, And you're correct the main target of the Chip Act is not China BUT TSMC and Samsung.

Like China or against China?​

But almost from the beginning, the fact that the U.S. would now provide subsidies, like China, became confused with the idea that the CHIPS Act was about competing or countering China in the semiconductor space. Even in the run-up to the bill’s signing ceremony,

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

talked about boosting U.S. competitiveness with China in the semiconductor arena: In the hyper anti-China atmosphere in Washington, that sounded better than “matching China’s subsidies,” which was unlikely to happen in any case. The competing and countering narrative has been repeated over and over by various parties over the past year.

The only problem with this is that the U.S. is not really in a competition with China in any subsector of the vast semiconductor industry. None. Nada. And not for the foreseeable future, either, except maybe in one area of the memory sector — but even here, the main competitors for U.S. firms are South Korean, not Chinese.

As I wrote in a

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

, Chinese firms are heavily dependent on imports of semiconductors across the board: Imports accounted for over $400 billion in 2021 and have been going up, not down. China is a long way from being capable of significantly exporting domestically developed chips. Chinese firms are even further behind their Western counterparts in all areas of semiconductor-manufacturing equipment.

And the CHIPS Act is also not about countering China, because the bulk of the funding is directed at attracting advanced manufacturing companies — TSMC and Samsung, for example — which never had plans to bring cutting-edge processes to China.

The initial and continued focus of Congress’s push to fund the CHIPS Act is, in fact, cutting-edge semiconductors, below the 7 nanometer (nm) node. Currently, and for the foreseeable future, there are zero Chinese companies that will compete in this space.

The real China connection to the CHIPS Act is actually all about Taiwan, and specifically TSMC. Washington realized in 2019 and 2020 that TSMC was responsible for over 90% of advanced chip manufacturing and over 50% of global foundry capacity. In addition, Washington national security hawks were convinced that Xí Jìnpíng 习近平 intended to act on Taiwan by 2027 or 2030, despite no evidence that Xi or China had, or have, a timetable for reunification. The need to replicate some of the capacity that TSMC commands on U.S. soil, before an escalation between China and Taiwan could potentially remove that capacity from the global market, became the real driving issue behind the new legislation: U.S. Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo has

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

“untenable and unsafe,” and a “Sputnik moment for America.”

mossen said:

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The new CHIPS and Science Act will help America advance its indigenous semiconductor industry. But it’s not going to make the U.S. any less dependent on Taiwan or any more competitive with China, argues Paul Triolo.

supchina.com
Immediatedly after the act was signed, Micron among others slashed their capex by billions of dollars. I suspect many of them will just cash the money and do stock buybacks.

Click to expand...

What a copium shit article.

tonyget said:

I rarely see bidding infos from the likes of CanSemi/CXMT/Silan/Nexchip/SMEI etc. Do they not buying any equipment or what

Click to expand...

Bidding info is highly confidential. I'm surprised we can get any information at all. Even winning a supplier award often comes with conditions on where you can publicize that information.