Chinese semiconductor industry

WTAN said:

The Japanese also know fully that if the Chinese manage to develop their own EUV Machine, the Japanese Lithography Machine Industry will go into terminal decline.

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nastya1 said:

If 50-50. The IP of that EUV is held by both party I believed. Chinese side would have a copy

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Playing hardball is the only choice here.

WTAN is wise. He knows business. He knows intimidation is a big part of business.

The Chinese probably will walk away from any Japanese joint initiatives for semiconductor manufacturing.

Unless the Japanese are willing to build it themselves inside China in a joint venture, not too much to expect.

nastya1 said:

If 50-50. The IP of that EUV is held by both party I believed. Chinese side would have a copy

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50%50% Joint venture and joint ownership of IP is only fair.
China also has done much research into DPP and LPP Light Sources. China can contribute much technology to the venture.

If the Chinese go ahead to develop their own EUV Machine, the Japanese will lose. The Americans and Europeans will never allow Japan to develop a EUV Machine by itself. The Japanese know that fact.

If Biden reverses Trump's executive orders, it will be seen as Biden being weak on China even within the Democratic Party. That's why Trump is probably planning a slew of actions against China. Biden will not look weak reversing Trump's exit from the WHO. The stupidity of Beijing is thinking trying to play the middle arguing it'll hurt both the US and China makes China look weaker therefore the US will hold the harder line. Americans don't think they don't need China and China perpetuates that when they think they're taking the high road when they should be openly laughing at how US actions have backfired. That's when they'll think twice on actions against China. The US is already forgetting how they were telling Trump's trade war against China failed because now they want Biden to continue the same policies. I'll expect we'll soon be hearing how they believe China pays the tariff again hence why Trump thinks it. Before Trump they were all advocating slapping high tariffs against China.

AssassinsMace said:

The stupidity of Beijing is thinking trying to play the middle arguing it'll hurt both the US and China makes China look weaker therefore the US will hold the harder line

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I don't think the CCP playing their hand this way is being stupid.

The CCP has to sound reasonable. Like it or not, people are scared of CCP, including the countries that just signed the RCEP.

horse said:

I don't think the CCP playing their hand this way is being stupid.

The CCP has to sound reasonable. Like it or not, people are scared of CCP, including the countries that just signed the RCEP.

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I'm sure Beijing thinks that. It's the US that doesn't see the same message. Americans don't want to believe they need any one. They only see that China is hurting because they admit it. So Americans will continue on the same path because China is hurting.

AssassinsMace said:

I'm sure Beijing thinks that. It's the US that doesn't see the same message. Americans don't want to believe they need any one. They only see that China is hurting because they admit it. So Americans will continue on the same path because China is hurting.

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Sure, that is what Beijing admitted, that they are hurting from the trade war and tech war. How true is it in reality, that is another question altogether.

This kind of blinders, they call that in horse racing because some horses if they see what is beside them they get frightened and don't race, the blinders only allow the horse to see directly ahead. American blinders that those American neo-con put on Lady Liberty, lead them to Iraq, and they still there.

When the game is played at this level, all that matters are the results.

Use American vanity against them, and they feel good!

WTAN said:

The Japanese basically want to use Chinese Money to build a EUV Machine. Then get the Chinese to buy the machine from them. Later on when the US sanctions this venture, China will lose everything.
This is not a good idea from Chinese perspective.

The only way this would be viable is for the Japanese to transfer technology or arrange licensed production of the light source. Then the entire EUV Machine should be produced in a joint venture with SMEE in a factory in China.

China in this case has the upper hand as it has the market for this machine. The Japanese know that only Chinese FABs will buy this machine.
The Japanese also know fully that if the Chinese manage to develop their own EUV Machine, the Japanese Lithography Machine Industry will go into terminal decline.

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Believe me, the Chinese is not that stupid

ansy1968 said:

Hi coolieno99,

My guess, TSMC, it has an EUVL machine and the expertise to produce a 5nm chips. China is helping TSMC to remain great again

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FUCKKKKKKK, another way for America to grab china by the balls? at least we couldn't use samsung this time? Apologies for the frustration but I'm not used to china repeating this mistake, its amateur.

@WTAN How serious is this?

Tsinghua group is ambitious and thinks it has alot of money. It try to expand into many fabs . Yes once again, use funds to purchase expensive western equipments and materials. But the main issue those fabs don't generate enough revenue by relying on domestic market alone.

All the recent dead semiconductor projects related to lack of funding for hugely expensive western equipments and materials fabs.several billion for each state of art fab.

If you don't have domestic equipments and materials, don't do it. Eventually it will lead to dead end.

What the government needs to do is stop giving companies huge funds to buy western equipments and materials and instead subsided domestic equipment and material firm for all their engineering cost and overhead cost. This way domestic equipments and materials can be sold at only "material cost" which should be at a much lower price for domestic companies to expand their fab capacity.

The current predicament reminds of third world countries buying expensive Boeing and Airbus planes and provides service for their countries. They only earn thin margin and all the profits goes to the plane makers.