Chinese semiconductor industry

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gelgoog

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The policy is a failure even for the narrow objectives they've defined. Advances in AI, etc. are much more driven by architectures (both hardware and software) and algorithms, not feature sizes. China is able to both produce 14nm/7nm indigenously (with ASML equipment for now and SMEE equipment shortly) and import more advanced chips. Servers are built with readily available commodity chips, and even banned companies can easily set up shells and source them.
I already said as much. Training is way more computationally expensive than inference. It may take huge resources and huge amounts of tests to make a proper AI model for something. But way less resources would be needed to use that model in real world situations. Those training nodes might be huge centralized supercomputers chewing huge datasets. What does it matter for such strategic electronics if they take 2x or even 4x the power and space?

The electronics people will actually use in the field, with the models baked in, will be portable and cheap.

This means having the transistor advantage won't be as important for military applications as you would think. And even if it is, if training can be shrunk to a field portable apparatus, if a human with automatic assists turns out to be cheaper than that system, it will still be of no advantage. I think the advantage will only come into play a long time into the future. Not in less than a decade if ever. The brain is 3D. And neurons don't store 1s and 0s. The brain operates at like 100x slower speed than semiconductors do. But once you add the fact it is non-binary the difference is eliminated and with the 3D the brain wins easily.

Medium term (3 to 5 years) China will have completely indigenized a cutting edge semiconductor design and manufacturing chain centered around domestic EUV lithography.
Gosh I hope so. But I would not bet on it. I think China would be better off making immersion DUV with 450mm wafers. Kill the West with volume of legacy nodes to a price point they can't compete.

I have some questions that are tangentially related to semiconductors:

1) in this report it is said that high-end radio frequency (RF) components are monopolised by the usa; "U.S. companies Skyworks, Qorvo, and Broadcom “monopolize” the high-end market for the “key” RF component, the power amplifier chip (or RF chip). There are “essentially” no Chinese firms at all in the high-end RF chip market. U.S. manufacturers such as Qorvo “entirely” dominate the market for another class of RF components: high-end wave filters used in mobile phones.
if china improves its semiconductor industry, is this one of the sectors where over reliance on the usa could be lessened?
I said this much here some time ago. We discussed here how HiSilicon had made its own Gallium Arsenide RF modules. But guess what. They were fabbed in Taiwan at WIN Semiconductors. That factory seems to be the only non-US competition in the commercial market.
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You could call them the TSMC of Gallium Arsenide chips, while Qorvo is a vertically integrated company sort of like Intel.

I am sure the Chinese MIC i.e. CETC has its own facilities. GaA RF is used in military radar. But AFAIK there are no commercial facilities in China. However I would not be surprised if you could use Gallium Nitride for much the same purposes. And there are loads of factories with Gallium Nitride process in China. It is commonly used to make consumer LEDs and modern military radar or 5G RF.

For example this is a Chinese manufacturer of substrates and discrete GaN LEDs and transistors.
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2) I think I read somewhere here on the forum that american aesa radars have qorvo chips in them. and I've learnt that chinese military aesa radars are very good quality. If point 1 is true, how did china manage to achieve such quality for aesa radars if they rely on american chips that are probably sanctioned by now? do chinese companies use home-grown" chips that are from bigger nodes but that the chinese semiconductor industry has already mastered?
Qorvo and other GaA RF makers in the US work for the DoD you are correct. The Chinese MIC has its own capabilities. It just seems they don't share with the commercial sector. China needs to stop this.
 
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ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
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Gosh I hope so. But I would not bet on it.
Then you're leaving money on the table. China already has all the components for a high-power DPP system, that it didn't move ahead with it indicates that China thinks it will soon have better options. Otherwise it would have moved ahead with DPP, damn the torpedoes.

China is on the cusp of fielding its own LPP system (2 to 3 years) that will be at least comparable to ASML's first commercial EUV. Further along, China will have a monopoly on SSMB EUV which will give it decisive advantages against all other competitors. Even if the SSMB technology doesn't pan out (and there don't seem to be any showstoppers thus far), China will be at least competitive in this field.
I think China would be better off making immersion DUV with 450mm wafers. Kill the West with volume of legacy nodes to a price point they can't compete.
I've heard this and packaging technologies like chiplets. That's nice, but China should never concede the field to its adversaries. Why should it? What could a bunch of Westerners ever come up with that China cannot exceed?
 

PopularScience

Junior Member
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I am sure the Chinese MIC i.e. CETC has its own facilities. GaA RF is used in military radar. But AFAIK there are no commercial facilities in China. However I would not be surprised if you could use Gallium Nitride for much the same purposes. And there are loads of factories with Gallium Nitride process in China. It is commonly used to make consumer LEDs and modern military radar or 5G RF.

海威华芯

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三安集成

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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Your first link seems more like what we are talking about. Since the second one, the one I mentioned, still seems to be only making discrete semiconductors. The first one mentions 6" GaA wafers at 0.25um process. This is similar to what companies like Qorvo use.

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ansy1968

Brigadier
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Gosh I hope so. But I would not bet on it. I think China would be better off making immersion DUV with 450mm wafers. Kill the West with volume of legacy nodes to a price point they can't compete.
@gelgoog It really surprises me why the Chinese didn't do it, they don't have any legacy 300mm wafers to start with, with a clean slate they could have taken advantage and steal a march from their well establish competitors
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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Gosh I hope so. But I would not bet on it. I think China would be better off making immersion DUV with 450mm wafers. Kill the West with volume of legacy nodes to a price point they can't compete.
450 mm wafers with immersion DUV would be an interesting strategy. This would require further development of domestic etch and deposition equipment with bigger chambers, superior temperature control, larger precision parts like quartz, ceramic, stainless, etc. It would require 100% fully automated fabs unlike manual 200 mm and semi-automatic 300 mm fabs. This takes advantage of Chinese advances in robotics and 5G communications to relay large amounts of data. But it does not require the development of entirely new equipment like EUV lithography which is an advantage.

Some challenges for IDMs: many analog fabs stick with 200 mm because the equipment is mostly used, for cost, but there's also a technical reason: they have large product variety in mid sized volumes so they need the flexibility of a more manual, lower volume, higher customizability 200 mm line. They need 1 type of product to justify 450 mm wafer adoption (i.e. multichip DPUs)

Some challenges for foundries: they need a stable customer base that wants to use 450 mm wafers. To prevent wasted capability and overproduction there needs to be a consistent high volume customer or alternatively, an advance in multiproject wafers that allows for 2 different types of chips to be put on 1 wafer. That means advances in mask making and in ready IP blocks so multiple customers can use the same IP block on their products i.e. a ready made SRAM subsection or serial communications subsection.
 

gelgoog

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For reference WIN Semi in Taiwan this year released 0.12um GaN and 0.1um GaA processes.
WIN Semi also still seems to use 6" wafers. Qorvo has already switched some production to 8" wafers.

So HiWafer are still a couple years behind. Like 2017 level.
Oh and guess what. They are in the US Entity List. So they must be doing something right.
It is a badge of honor at this point.
 
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56860

Senior Member
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Indeed, I have great appreciation for the state owned companies with straightforward names (CETC, Wuhan Steel, etc) and larger public companies that just outright use pinyin names like Baidu, Huawei, Haier, Xiaomi, Datang, etc.

Seriously wtf is up with these names? is Qi'er so bad??

I did dunk on GermanLitho before though. They deserve the dunking more than anyone. Seriously, GermanLitho, wtf.
I see your GermanLitho and raise you a
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