Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

Brigadier
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Not yet. SMEE has a prototype ArF DUV 28nm immersion lithography tool which they will start delivering to customers next year. But to produce chips at lower resolution it will take them another year or two. Probably to produce something similar to this mask stepper.
To produce chips at 5nm and below AFAIK you need to use EUV. As the process node decreases the number of steps you need to use with multiple-patterning increases exponentially and it is not cost effective at 5nm.
In fact TSMC even uses EUV in their 7nm processes in some steps.

I think 7nm is the practical limit with ArF DUV like what SMEE has right now. 5nm will require EUV light source and equipment.
With regards to ASML exporting EUV tools to the PRC, it won't happen until China can do their own EUV tools I think.
Hi gelgoog,

Thanks bro for explaining it in layman's terms, So EUVL is really needed to go 5nm nodes and lower. another question can SMIC use a SMEE 28nm DUVL combine with this ASML mask stepper to produce 7nm chips? Can FABS pick and choose different equipment , I know that TSMC use a 5nm plasma etching equipment from AMEC.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
...
another question can SMIC use a SMEE 28nm DUVL combine with this ASML mask stepper to produce 7nm chips? Can FABS pick and choose different equipment , I know that TSMC use a 5nm plasma etching equipment from AMEC.

I seriously doubt it. Etching is a separate step where you remove the things you don't want on the chip. It's a step after the lithography step.
This machine likely needs to work in tandem with the lithography machine in the same processing step.
What they can do is look at it to gets ideas. But from what I understand SMEE already has a roadmap to produce a similar tool in like two or three years like I said.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
I seriously doubt it. Etching is a separate step where you remove the things you don't want on the chip. It's a step after the lithography step.
This machine likely needs to work in tandem with the lithography machine in the same processing step.
What they can do is look at it to gets ideas. But from what I understand SMEE already has a roadmap to produce a similar tool in like two or three years like I said.
Hi gelgoog,

Thanks, so do you think this is a marketing ploy by ASML especially for the Chinese market? Like horse mention a piece of the pie. A way of selling their DUVL with EUVL like performance?
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
Hi gelgoog,

Thanks, so do you think this is a marketing ploy by ASML especially for the Chinese market? Like horse mention a piece of the pie. A way of selling their DUVL with EUVL like performance?
Hi ansy1968,

Anything is possible, but I think we can reduce it to two general possibilities.

Fact is that ASML invented the wheel.

Fast is SMIC is trying to re-invent the wheel.

Fact is ASML is saying they want to sell this specific part, of the wheel.

This is where it gets interesting ... Why?
(and of course, this is where the usual suspects hiding in the bushes jump out and declare, China will never do it! Need American License! Fake news China! and so on and so forth from the Liberal media).

From the business perspective, this could be ASML saying, you gonna need this part, because this is a difficult thing to do, we will help with this bottleneck, since ASML invented the wheel, they should know. If ASML wants to do this, they want to be partners and be part of the future too of China 2025. This is the most sensible business interpretation, where the risks are low and can maximize potential.

Anything else for ASML, is not a sure thing. If they ASML say we are willing to sell you this part, but offer no more service, then they run the risk of the Chinese developing their IC industries and cutting them 100% out. Being cut out of China would be a sure thing if ASML fades into the background. Not the type of sure thing they probably would want.

If ASML starts talking this way, everyone in IC inside China would take note. How serious are they?

They sound serious. They going out of their way to get the message across about the bans not being a problem.

The door swings both ways. ASML could walk out, but here they are holding it open.

:)
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
I feel like the over obsession with "catching" up with TSMC to 5Nm or 7Nm or etc. is misguided. Taiwan and Japan and SK are only good at incremental improvement on existing technology. They may make transistors smaller, but they will definitely not be the ones to invent the technology that replaces semiconductors.

China should have the spirit of taking big leaps in technology and focus on the technology that will make transistors obsolete. Like how the MOSFET transistor made vacuum tubes obolete for most applications. Not being short sighted on "catching up" with TSMC.

That's the difference between America and Japan, SK and Taiwan in terms of innovation. China should strive to have the same innovative spirit as America and not fall into the trap of incremental innovation.
 

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
I feel like the over obsession with "catching" up with TSMC to 5Nm or 7Nm or etc. is misguided. Taiwan and Japan and SK are only good at incremental improvement on existing technology. They may make transistors smaller, but they will definitely not be the ones to invent the technology that replaces semiconductors.

China should have the spirit of taking big leaps in technology and focus on the technology that will make transistors obsolete. Like how the MOSFET transistor made vacuum tubes obolete for most applications. Not being short sighted on "catching up" with TSMC.

That's the difference between America and Japan, SK and Taiwan in terms of innovation. China should strive to have the same innovative spirit as America and not fall into the trap of incremental innovation.
Agree with what you are saying, and since this is China we talking about, it is the size that overwhelms.

There are too many projects going on. Projects that are well funded.

There was an article in the Asiatimes.com today where it said that China launched a 6G satellite, leapfrogging everybody, like, holy shit!

4G China plays catch-up, 5G China pulls ahead, a 6G satellite launch this week like holy shit!

Put ourselves into ASML shoes, and they should want to be on the inside of the room, when they start to shut the door.

Then of course, we have Pompeo and Navarro hiding in the bushes, jumping out declaring China cheated! Ban Huawei! Trump wins! and so on and so forth like Faux News Liberal media.

:D
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I feel like the over obsession with "catching" up with TSMC to 5Nm or 7Nm or etc. is misguided. Taiwan and Japan and SK are only good at incremental improvement on existing technology. They may make transistors smaller, but they will definitely not be the ones to invent the technology that replaces semiconductors.

China should have the spirit of taking big leaps in technology and focus on the technology that will make transistors obsolete. Like how the MOSFET transistor made vacuum tubes obolete for most applications. Not being short sighted on "catching up" with TSMC.

That's the difference between America and Japan, SK and Taiwan in terms of innovation. China should strive to have the same innovative spirit as America and not fall into the trap of incremental innovation.

No, China needs to do both. They need to catch up with existing technology and develop new technology at the same time. Developing new technology without understanding existing technology gets you in the place India is at this time. i.e. trying to spin gold from straw.
There has been talk that Moore's law is obsolete for decades. The reality is, there is a roadmap to keep it going for at least another decade, and it has been so for several decades. Once we get to the atomic level, then we will have to come up with something else, perhaps vertical integration, but it does not mean this technology is useless. Much like older nodes still get used today.
There was a huge delay with EUV and people thought we were going to be stuck forever at the same process node. Then someone came up with immersion lithography and gave the industry at least a decade more of shrinks in transistor size. Enough time that EUV is now working even if not at the scale it should be. The EUV light sources are still highly inefficient. Fact is the industry was working on EUV since at least the 1970s but basically only did basic research then and gave up. Just look it up. X-ray lithography.
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"Extreme Ultra Violet" technology is in fact what used to be called "Soft X-ray" technology decades ago.
So as you see there is a path to continue die shrinks even beyond what EUV allows even if we have to got into "Hard X-ray" technology.
i.e. continue the path to decreasing wavelength. At least until we hit atomic limits.

I would disagree with you that Taiwan, Japan, and SK are only good at incremental improvements. One example is the violet laser which was basically invented in Japan along with modern green and blue lasers. This was the basis for Blu-ray technology and later for white LEDs for lighting applications. There was nothing "incremental" about it. People were trying to do it for decades and failed. Unless you think everything humans do is incremental. It was a titanic shift. Go look at research for batteries and graphene you'll also find a lot of Japanese researchers associated with it. South Korea also does a lot of technology advances but they aren't as well known in the hard sciences yet. Taiwan is limited by its population pool, but the business TSMC does hasn't been replicated elsewhere and not for lack of trying with vast resources sometimes.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
Agree with what you are saying, and since this is China we talking about, it is the size that overwhelms.

There are too many projects going on. Projects that are well funded.

There was an article in the Asiatimes.com today where it said that China launched a 6G satellite, leapfrogging everybody, like, holy shit!

4G China plays catch-up, 5G China pulls ahead, a 6G satellite launch this week like holy shit!

Put ourselves into ASML shoes, and they should want to be on the inside of the room, when they start to shut the door.

Then of course, we have Pompeo and Navarro hiding in the bushes, jumping out declaring China cheated! Ban Huawei! Trump wins! and so on and so forth like Faux News Liberal media.

:D

Yah exactly, I think China understands it as well. 6G is an example, quantum communications is an example, carbon nanotube chips is another example, etc.

Its these massive inventions which will truly seperate China and Japan or SK.
 

free_6ix9ine

Junior Member
Registered Member
No, China needs to do both. They need to catch up with existing technology and develop new technology at the same time. Developing new technology without understanding existing technology gets you in the place India is at this time. i.e. trying to spin gold from straw.
There has been talk that Moore's law is obsolete for decades. The reality is, there is a roadmap to keep it going for at least another decade, and it has been so for several decades. Once we get to the atomic level, then we will have to come up with something else, perhaps vertical integration, but it does not mean this technology is useless. Much like older nodes still get used today.
There was a huge delay with EUV and people thought we were going to be stuck forever at the same process node. Then someone came up with immersion lithography and gave the industry at least a decade more of shrinks in transistor size. Enough time that EUV is now working even if not at the scale it should be. The EUV light sources are still highly inefficient. Fact is the industry was working on EUV since at least the 1970s but basically only did basic research then and gave up. Just look it up. X-ray lithography.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

"Extreme Ultra Violet" technology is in fact what used to be called "Soft X-ray" technology decades ago.
So as you see there is a path to continue die shrinks even beyond what EUV allows even if we have to got into "Hard X-ray" technology.
i.e. continue the path to decreasing wavelength. At least until we hit atomic limits.

I would disagree with you that Taiwan, Japan, and SK are only good at incremental improvements. One example is the violet laser which was basically invented in Japan along with modern green and blue lasers. This was the basis for Blu-ray technology and later for white LEDs for lighting applications. There was nothing "incremental" about it. People were trying to do it for decades and failed. Unless you think everything humans do is incremental. It was a titanic shift. Go look at research for batteries and graphene you'll also find a lot of Japanese researchers associated with it. South Korea also does a lot of technology advances but they aren't as well known in the hard sciences yet. Taiwan is limited by its population pool, but the business TSMC does hasn't been replicated elsewhere and not for lack of trying with vast resources sometimes.

I will agree with you EUV is a new tech, but that wasn't even invented in Taiwan. So essentially Taiwan is still doing the same incremental improvements of making things smaller albeit with better tools.

Moore's law won't end soon, but China shouldn't be single-minded in trying to catch up. Better idea is to find a leapfrog tech and say adios to Moore's law.

Intel basically said. We not gonna bother with making it smaller and instead go with 3D design.

Lastly, Japan and SK may have some innovations which aren't incremental. But most of it is still incremental.

Also, last point. There are different approaches to accomplish the same goal. You don't always need to copy to learn and then innovate.
 
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