Chinese semiconductor industry
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To WTAN and other experts, what is a DUV mask aligner ? Do SMEE or other China tech company able to produce one or its a new ASML DUVL that is sanction proof and can produce 7nm chips?
from cnTechPost
ASML demonstrates DUV mask aligner for 7nm processes in China
2020-11-05 19:20:29 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
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The mask aligner manufacturing giant ASML is present at the ongoing 3rd China Import Expo, and is exhibiting the DUV mask aligner at its own booth, Chinese media reported.
ASML did not show its new EUV mask aligner because it is not yet able to export EUV mask aligners to China, while the DUV mask aligner on display is capable of producing 7nm and above process chips.
ASML also brought its total lithography solution, including advanced control capabilities of the mask aligner table for computational lithography and measurement to improve edge positioning accuracy through modeling, simulation, and analysis.
Prior to this, ASML CFO Roger Dassen discussed business with Chinese customers such as SMIC in a video interview at the earnings conference, stating that in some cases no license is required to export the mask aligner.
Roger Dassen pointed out that ASML is aware of the current regulations and their interpretation by the U.S. authorities, and certainly knows that these are relevant to specific Chinese customers.
But a broader understanding of the overall implications of the regulations for ASML would mean that ASML would be able to supply DUV lithography systems from the Netherlands to these Chinese customers without the need for an export license, he said.
There are two main types of mask aligners: EUV mask aligners and DUV mask aligners, which are dry split and liquid immersion mask aligners.
The liquid-immersion mask aligner, which was developed by ASML, has a wavelength of 193nm but an equivalent wavelength of 134nm. However, each additional exposure results in higher manufacturing costs and yield is difficult to control.
The EUV mask aligner uses a light source with a wavelength of 13.5 nm, which is an essential tool for breaking through the 10 nm process node.
In other words, even if the DUV (deep ultraviolet) mask aligner can find a replacement from Nikon and Canon, without ASML's EUV mask aligner, the 5nm production lines of chip giants TSMC, Samsung, and Intel will not be able to go into production.
from cnTechPost
ASML demonstrates DUV mask aligner for 7nm processes in China
2020-11-05 19:20:29 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
0
The mask aligner manufacturing giant ASML is present at the ongoing 3rd China Import Expo, and is exhibiting the DUV mask aligner at its own booth, Chinese media reported.
ASML did not show its new EUV mask aligner because it is not yet able to export EUV mask aligners to China, while the DUV mask aligner on display is capable of producing 7nm and above process chips.
ASML also brought its total lithography solution, including advanced control capabilities of the mask aligner table for computational lithography and measurement to improve edge positioning accuracy through modeling, simulation, and analysis.
Prior to this, ASML CFO Roger Dassen discussed business with Chinese customers such as SMIC in a video interview at the earnings conference, stating that in some cases no license is required to export the mask aligner.
Roger Dassen pointed out that ASML is aware of the current regulations and their interpretation by the U.S. authorities, and certainly knows that these are relevant to specific Chinese customers.
But a broader understanding of the overall implications of the regulations for ASML would mean that ASML would be able to supply DUV lithography systems from the Netherlands to these Chinese customers without the need for an export license, he said.
There are two main types of mask aligners: EUV mask aligners and DUV mask aligners, which are dry split and liquid immersion mask aligners.
The liquid-immersion mask aligner, which was developed by ASML, has a wavelength of 193nm but an equivalent wavelength of 134nm. However, each additional exposure results in higher manufacturing costs and yield is difficult to control.
The EUV mask aligner uses a light source with a wavelength of 13.5 nm, which is an essential tool for breaking through the 10 nm process node.
In other words, even if the DUV (deep ultraviolet) mask aligner can find a replacement from Nikon and Canon, without ASML's EUV mask aligner, the 5nm production lines of chip giants TSMC, Samsung, and Intel will not be able to go into production.
Hmm ...
This is kind of like ASML saying ...
"China 2025? No problem! ... ASML is part of China 2025!"
"Fa cai! Fa cai!"
From what I understand it is kind of simple. To do lithography you need to basically project light through a mask which has the chip printed in it. This mask aligner is a tool used to do multiple-patterning where you use multiple passes to increase resolution beyond the light limit.
Supposedly this tool, paired together with an ArF DUV immersion lithography tool, allows to do photolithography for 7nm chips.
This is mainly useful for factories which produce high-end logic chips. Like SMIC.
The V-NAND memory producers AFAIK use like 20nm with vertical stacking in several layers.
ASML is getting really nervous because China is massively ramping up fab equipment purchases and if they get left out and say Canon or Nikon get the orders they will lose big time. I think the Chinese government should make it so orders are split 50/50 between ASML and the Japanese suppliers at least in case there is no Chinese supplier. Right now China needs to import this class of equipment in order to have a smooth transition path until their own tools are available.
Supposedly this tool, paired together with an ArF DUV immersion lithography tool, allows to do photolithography for 7nm chips.
This is mainly useful for factories which produce high-end logic chips. Like SMIC.
The V-NAND memory producers AFAIK use like 20nm with vertical stacking in several layers.
ASML is getting really nervous because China is massively ramping up fab equipment purchases and if they get left out and say Canon or Nikon get the orders they will lose big time. I think the Chinese government should make it so orders are split 50/50 between ASML and the Japanese suppliers at least in case there is no Chinese supplier. Right now China needs to import this class of equipment in order to have a smooth transition path until their own tools are available.
Hi gelgoog,
Thanks for your prompt reply, so in other words you don't need a EUVL to produce a 7nm or 5nm chips? a way to circumvent the sanction? competition is good, see how ASML react when SMEE announce their 28nm DUVL machine, now with NIKON and CANON the more the merrier and is good for SMIC. An advice though and to be sure, it need a sanction proof guarantee for the major DUVL manufacturer before purchase.
Another question can ASML, CANON and NIKON sell their DUVL machine to Huawei?
Hi horse,Hmm ...
This is kind of like ASML saying ...
"China 2025? No problem! ... ASML is part of China 2025!"
"Fa cai! Fa cai!"
A good one bro
, yup they want a piece of the pie too, and China should demand that only EUVL is allowed to import instead of DUVL, cause we already had a better one...
Hi ansy1968,
Yeah bro, must say that article you post, was rather surprising.
It is not even 2 months right? Since the announcement of the 3rd party sanctions, the banning of US tech to any dealings with Huawei or SMIC, here is the boss of the world leading semi-conductor manufacturer on record indicating this is how they can get around the ban, without giving any details.
No details were given, because ASML do not want the CIA poking their nose around again their business again. Note that the ASML boss choose the US elections period to make such comments.
It is a bit shocking. What's 2 months, you know. Seems like the path is clearing up or will be cleared up for China to move up the IC industry in the production of advanced chips, with foreign companies selling the relevant equipment to do so.
The US ban against Huawei as the target, and then extended to SMIC, which was to re-target Huawei, has to be air tight to make it work, that it could stop the supply of 7nm chips to stop the building of the 5G base station (assume for a second we disregard the stockpile). The domestic Chinese engineered solution to this, has to wait, at least probably 1 or 2 years.
But when someone like ASML indicates they want to break ranks, get around the ban, and sell certain types of products not covered by the ban (and not complete systems), where that part could be used in the Chinese production machines, that makes a US 3rd party ban much harder to enforce, and makes everyone else in the IC industry want to do the same.
Turn away from US bans, and turn towards the China market, no one is giving up on that. Not even 2 months after the deadline for the 3rd party bans and commercial incentives are taking over, and companies want that market. The dam could break. Right at US elections time.
It may or may not happen right now, but wow brother, what entertainment!
Not to mention the prerequisite sour grapes.
That's is how we fight or watch a fight. The attacks and counter-attacks have their right timing. Then you do it.
Old article from few months ago, so atypical, heh!
Yeah bro, must say that article you post, was rather surprising.
It is not even 2 months right? Since the announcement of the 3rd party sanctions, the banning of US tech to any dealings with Huawei or SMIC, here is the boss of the world leading semi-conductor manufacturer on record indicating this is how they can get around the ban, without giving any details.
No details were given, because ASML do not want the CIA poking their nose around again their business again. Note that the ASML boss choose the US elections period to make such comments.
It is a bit shocking. What's 2 months, you know. Seems like the path is clearing up or will be cleared up for China to move up the IC industry in the production of advanced chips, with foreign companies selling the relevant equipment to do so.
The US ban against Huawei as the target, and then extended to SMIC, which was to re-target Huawei, has to be air tight to make it work, that it could stop the supply of 7nm chips to stop the building of the 5G base station (assume for a second we disregard the stockpile). The domestic Chinese engineered solution to this, has to wait, at least probably 1 or 2 years.
But when someone like ASML indicates they want to break ranks, get around the ban, and sell certain types of products not covered by the ban (and not complete systems), where that part could be used in the Chinese production machines, that makes a US 3rd party ban much harder to enforce, and makes everyone else in the IC industry want to do the same.
Turn away from US bans, and turn towards the China market, no one is giving up on that. Not even 2 months after the deadline for the 3rd party bans and commercial incentives are taking over, and companies want that market. The dam could break. Right at US elections time.
It may or may not happen right now, but wow brother, what entertainment!
Not to mention the prerequisite sour grapes.
That's is how we fight or watch a fight. The attacks and counter-attacks have their right timing. Then you do it.
Old article from few months ago, so atypical, heh!
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You'll notice as well too that the tone of the anglophone media like CNN, when it comes to obvious display s of unfairness, bullying and outright criminal targeting of Chinese firms, that the tone isn't one of regret or even concern, it is rather a tone of smugness and sadism. They don't give a shit about fairness or the free market, they care only that a white western nation retains tech dominance, and i am happy to see them in decline.
Hi horse and gelgoog,
Yup , ASML is desperate for a deal, my question is does China (SMEE) had an equivalent machine, after reading the article, both this machine and latest 3D technique is enough to produced 7nm, 5nm and even 3nm using existing equipment, a major breakthrough if does happen and doesn't necessitate an expensive EUVL. So this ASML product is solely for China market?
from cnTechPost
ASML exec says they remain open to exporting mask aligner to China
2020-11-06 18:51:16 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
0
ASML is open to exporting IC mask aligner to China and will fully support it within the legal and regulatory framework, Shen Bo, global vice president and president of the mask aligner manufacturing giant's China region, said in an interview with on November 5.
At present, China has become one of the fastest-growing regions in the world in terms of integrated circuit development. The IC industry is also a strategic and fundamental industry for China's national economic and social development.
ASML is one of the world's largest manufacturers of integrated circuit equipment, headquartered in Veldhoven, the Netherlands. The company's mask aligners are essential to the production of integrated circuits.
The company's state-of-the-art EUV (extreme ultraviolet) mask aligners have a processing limit of 5 nanometers. Apple's latest iPhone 12 is powered by a 5nm chip made with ASML support.
Our machines were first introduced to China in 1988 and we have worked well with the Chinese IC industry at every stage, Shen said, adding that there are now more than 700 installed machines in China covering most of ASML's product types.
Old products don't necessarily become obsolete as new ones are released, and some products from the 1980s and 1990s are still in demand, he said.
This is because now the application of integrated circuit diversification, 7 nanometers, 5 nanometers, 3 nanometers of the number of chips in the entire chip supply chain is about only 10%, the vast majority of chips are in need of "mature process".
For example, now the Internet of Things, automotive electronics, rail transportation, ultra-high voltage power transmission, and other "new infrastructure" in many aspects of the need for a large number of or "mature process" of the chip.
"I sometimes feel that the classification of high-end and low-end is not right, and the demand for mask aligner is different for different products. Some may need to do 5nm, some may need to do 40nm, 28nm is enough, some even need to do 90, 110nm, different product types with different application scenarios," he said.
ASML has also established its own training center in China in recent years to train lithography industry talent. At the same time, it has become two technology development centers in Shenzhen and Beijing to do computational lithography, measurement, and other development, he claimed.
He mentioned that an export license is still awaited from the Dutch government for exporting EUVmask aligner to China.
He said:
ASML has to comply with all laws and regulations when exporting mask aligners, but we are very open to exporting mask aligners to China and we treat all our customers worldwide equally.
As long as we are able to provide the technology and equipment, we will fully support it.
In fact, in the second and third quarters of 2020, the company shipped more than 20 percent of its total number of mask aligners to China.
Yup , ASML is desperate for a deal, my question is does China (SMEE) had an equivalent machine, after reading the article, both this machine and latest 3D technique is enough to produced 7nm, 5nm and even 3nm using existing equipment, a major breakthrough if does happen and doesn't necessitate an expensive EUVL. So this ASML product is solely for China market?
from cnTechPost
ASML exec says they remain open to exporting mask aligner to China
2020-11-06 18:51:16 GMT+8 | cnTechPost
0
ASML is open to exporting IC mask aligner to China and will fully support it within the legal and regulatory framework, Shen Bo, global vice president and president of the mask aligner manufacturing giant's China region, said in an interview with on November 5.
At present, China has become one of the fastest-growing regions in the world in terms of integrated circuit development. The IC industry is also a strategic and fundamental industry for China's national economic and social development.
ASML is one of the world's largest manufacturers of integrated circuit equipment, headquartered in Veldhoven, the Netherlands. The company's mask aligners are essential to the production of integrated circuits.
The company's state-of-the-art EUV (extreme ultraviolet) mask aligners have a processing limit of 5 nanometers. Apple's latest iPhone 12 is powered by a 5nm chip made with ASML support.
Our machines were first introduced to China in 1988 and we have worked well with the Chinese IC industry at every stage, Shen said, adding that there are now more than 700 installed machines in China covering most of ASML's product types.
Old products don't necessarily become obsolete as new ones are released, and some products from the 1980s and 1990s are still in demand, he said.
This is because now the application of integrated circuit diversification, 7 nanometers, 5 nanometers, 3 nanometers of the number of chips in the entire chip supply chain is about only 10%, the vast majority of chips are in need of "mature process".
For example, now the Internet of Things, automotive electronics, rail transportation, ultra-high voltage power transmission, and other "new infrastructure" in many aspects of the need for a large number of or "mature process" of the chip.
"I sometimes feel that the classification of high-end and low-end is not right, and the demand for mask aligner is different for different products. Some may need to do 5nm, some may need to do 40nm, 28nm is enough, some even need to do 90, 110nm, different product types with different application scenarios," he said.
ASML has also established its own training center in China in recent years to train lithography industry talent. At the same time, it has become two technology development centers in Shenzhen and Beijing to do computational lithography, measurement, and other development, he claimed.
He mentioned that an export license is still awaited from the Dutch government for exporting EUVmask aligner to China.
He said:
ASML has to comply with all laws and regulations when exporting mask aligners, but we are very open to exporting mask aligners to China and we treat all our customers worldwide equally.
As long as we are able to provide the technology and equipment, we will fully support it.
In fact, in the second and third quarters of 2020, the company shipped more than 20 percent of its total number of mask aligners to China.
ASML may say one thing. Unless and until the license is granted and the mask aligner is in Chinese hands and working, I wouldn't count it as certain.
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