Chinese semiconductor industry

dengyeye said:

Yes it is; separating semiconductors from geopolitics is impossible.

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Not to turn this into all politics. But you did any of you notice this tweet series by French president Macron after his call with Xi:


...

"The Chinese President expressed his desire to continue deepening and rebalancing the partnership between our countries. I share that desire. We will pool our efforts and go further in projects relating to aviation and civil nuclear power."

Imagine a US president tweeting something like this after a call with Xi. Just goes to show that there is a western world beyond the US.

mrandolph said:

Imagine a US president tweeting something like this after a call with Xi. Just goes to show that there is a western world beyond the US.

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Nah EU and other US allies are still US vassals.

But even vassals might seek greener pastures or betray their master/lord. Or at the very least have their own agendas and plans.

tphuang said:

There areany reasons why china has seen it's reputation go down. I think covid is still the number one reason. A lot of these factors should fade over time. But I think we need to stop blaming all this drop in popularity to USA. As china grows, becomes the world factory and deindustrialized much of first world country, there will be backlash against Chinese power. Many western countries do not like to see Asian countries eclipse them. It happened to Japan in the 80s and it's happening to china now.

If you follow NEV market, you will see how European automakers are having a hard time evn acknowledging that byd and nio are killing them. And I see this as a threat to Chinese high tech company everywhere they go. Can these formerly leading western countries accept having china being the largest high tech producers. It's one thing to leave cheap electronics and clothing production to Asia. It's quite another thing for an Asian country to dominate the production of semiconductors, renewable energy and EV. That's why china needs to cultivate it's strength in Asia, latin America and Africa. Help these countries also develop their hard tech industry.

I don't think china will face bans everywhere in Europe. After all, Europe itself is divided with different priorities. Do you think countries like Poland and hungry are going to be against china building high tech factories in their country to sell to rest of the Europe? China will be fine. This level of paranoia because Huawei got banned by a few countries is not helpful. It just needs to develop its own industries and no worry what others might do.

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I agree with most of your points, most certainly that as China grows, many countries that used to look down on China will be uncomfortable seeing themselves and even the countries they looked up to get overtaken by China. And also, that COVID played a large role in China's reputational decline. However, on the latter part, it only happened that way because the US has media control over the Western nations and spread rumors that China was not only responsible for COVID's spread but also might have created it as a biological weapon (which escaped due to incompetence), and therefore, owes the world reparations. The correct narrative would have been that China's swift and decisive victory over COVID without warning and during the most hectic time of year in China proved China's entry into the world's most advanced and capable nations while most of the rest of the world failed to follow that role model and thus cast themselves and the world into a prolonged struggle with COVID. To cast blame on a country that was the first victim of a pandemic with such malicious rumors is unheard of in world history. It's beyond immoral and shows American desperation at the underhanded tactics believes it must resort to along with its constant plight for help from the international community in confronting China.

Not directly related to semiconductor, but I see a lot of talk of Huawei
I had posted in the American economics thread that the Huawei "ban and replace" order was a joke because no one is acting on it due to high cost
Here is another such article just a few hours old!

Also mentioned was the waivers granted to Hikvision, lol, such powerful sanctions!
Another case of Virtue Signalling is cheap, but "Show me the money" is hard

While there’s no penalty for failing to meet the mandate, there is a pressing deadline: Because the Chinese manufacturers are ending their US-based service programs, networks that rely on their equipment are one lightning strike away from a crisis.

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The land of unintended consequences. The US government's animosity against Chinese companies caused them to withdraw from the US market, leaving equipment without a cheaper replacement alternative and without support.

Sorry to insist off-topic. This will possibly be my last post on this.

tphuang said:

If you follow NEV market, you will see how European automakers are having a hard time evn acknowledging that byd and nio are killing them. And I see this as a threat to Chinese high tech company everywhere they go. Can these formerly leading western countries accept having china being the largest high tech producers. It's one thing to leave cheap electronics and clothing production to Asia. It's quite another thing for an Asian country to dominate the production of semiconductors, renewable energy and EV. That's why china needs to cultivate it's strength in Asia, latin America and Africa. Help these countries also develop their hard tech industry.

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Please let me clarify this point. European people have no problems in accepting a stronger China as long as our companies can survive, indeed we (Europeans) have absolutely no spirit, no energy, no will to be world leaders. People here just want to live well and possibly go along well with everybody else, we don't have hegemonic aspiration, the young people here (contrary to China) have no special ambitions for their country, they just want to have a good job and a good life. As you can see, for us it is already a monstrous task to get some bit of startegical independence, and lately, with Ukraine war, we are failing hugely even at it.

Instead US and anglophone people are totally different. US is the world's super power and the other anglophone countries think of themselves to be the boss's little brother. US people think (and rightly so from their point of view) that they must remain the only superpower, there is no possible other way. If the dollar would became just a currency like the others and not a product that US can print in unlimited quantities under monopoly conditions and can control tightly even when is owned by someone else, if in the world's "rule base order" US ends up following the rules and not just giving orders, than all the US supremacy castle would fall down loudly because their feet are weak: trade balance is negative by 1000 bilion dollar / year, delocalization have destroyed their industry, internal services and life (health, insurances, various forms of red tape, etc..) are hugely expensive and fed budget is always in deep deficit, etc.

european_guy said:

Sorry to insist off-topic. This will possibly be my last post on this.



Please let me clarify this point. European people have no problems in accepting a stronger China as long as our companies can survive, indeed we (Europeans) have absolutely no spirit, no energy, no will to be world leaders. People here just want to live well and possibly go along well with everybody else, we don't have hegemonic aspiration, the young people here (contrary to China) have no special ambitions for their country, they just want to have a good job and a good life. As you can see, for us it is already a monstrous task to get some bit of startegical independence, and lately, with Ukraine war, we are failing hugely even at it.

Instead US and anglophone people are totally different. US is the world's super power and the other anglophone countries think of themselves to be the boss's little brother. US people think (and rightly so from their point of view) that they must remain the only superpower, there is no possible other way. If the dollar would became just a currency like the others and not a product that US can print in unlimited quantities under monopoly conditions and can control tightly even when is owned by someone else, if in the world's "rule base order" US ends up following the rules and not just giving orders, than all the US supremacy castle would fall down loudly because their feet are weak: trade balance is negative by 1000 bilion dollar / year, delocalization have destroyed their industry, internal services and life (health, insurances, various forms of red tape, etc..) are hugely expensive and fed budget is always in deep deficit, etc.

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Europe is a large continent with wide ranging views. I can't say I understand how Europeans think, since I have only lived in UK before. All other countries I have been to are on vacation. I can only say that I have seen the reaction of German automakers to the growing prowess of Chinese ev automakers. It's almost like they can't get themselves to admit that Chinese automakers have met or surpassed them in this area. They have no problem with admitting Tesla being ahead of them, but can't admit that byd or nio being strong also. So maybe this is just my bias from time spent in UK and listening to other oversea Chinese expat, but I think certain European nations that have strong historical industrial base will have a hard time accepting china has surpassed them in certain hard tech industries. And since these countries like Germany also tend to be the most powerful eu countries, they have influence over how smaller eu countries make their decisions. I think if Europeans have negative perception of china or block certain tech companies, we cannot just blame that on America or Britain. I also think that Europeans have far more independent decision making process than what many members on this forum think.

While I think everyone on this forum would be glad if china starts exporting semi conductor equipments to Europe, it's also natural that certain European countries may not be entirely receptive to Chinese products. But as with all things, time do change. Trump was close to pulling out of nato. That section of isolationist part of American population is not going away. The Russian invasion may have caused the European elites to get closer to NATO and against Russia at this time, things may be entirely different in a year time when inflation is high and economies are bad due to cutting off natural gas supply from Russia.

Foreign media: Shanghai silicon industry subsidiary Okmetic will invest in a new factory in Finland to focus on SOI wafers​

Silicon wafer maker Okmetic said it will invest 388 million euros (about 400 million U.S. dollars) to build a silicon wafer fab in Finland, doubling its production capacity. The company was acquired by Shanghai Silicon Industry in 2016 and has net sales of 128 million euros (approximately $135 million) in 2021.

According to eeNews, Okmetic announced that it will build a new factory near its current silicon wafer fab in Vantaa, Finland, which will create more than 500 jobs. The project will start construction in early 2023 and start production in 2025.

Okmetic supplies 6" and 8" silicon wafers, including SOI wafers and high resistivity RFSi wafers, as well as patterned wafers, polished wafers, TSV wafers and wafers for MEMS and power devices.

The planned investment will be the largest in Okmetic's history. Over the past five years, the company has spent more than 100 million euros increasing capacity at its No. 1 silicon fab in Vantaa.

The new factory will have a total area of 40,000 square meters, equipped with a clean room of 6,000 square meters, and will focus on the production of SOI wafers, mainly producing single-sided and double-sided 8-inch polished wafers and epitaxy.

"We have experienced several years of strong growth, and market forecasts show that positive developments in the semiconductor industry will continue," Okmetic CEO Kai Seikku said in a statement. "Looking at the bigger picture, this investment can also Seen as part of Europe’s drive towards self-sufficiency in the global semiconductor value chain. However, the overall focus will be on global markets.”

Qiu Ciyun, president of Shanghai Silicon Industry and chairman of Okmetic, said, "This will also enable Shanghai Silicon Industry -- Okmetic's parent company -- to play a more important role in the global semiconductor wafer supply chain." (Proofreading/LL)



Marco Rubio Screaming in 10 9 8 7 6.........

manqiangrexue said:

I agree with most of your points, most certainly that as China grows, many countries that used to look down on China will be uncomfortable seeing themselves and even the countries they looked up to get overtaken by China. And also, that COVID played a large role in China's reputational decline. However, on the latter part, it only happened that way because the US has media control over the Western nations and spread rumors that China was not only responsible for COVID's spread but also might have created it as a biological weapon (which escaped due to incompetence), and therefore, owes the world reparations. The correct narrative would have been that China's swift and decisive victory over COVID without warning and during the most hectic time of year in China proved China's entry into the world's most advanced and capable nations while most of the rest of the world failed to follow that role model and thus cast themselves and the world into a prolonged struggle with COVID. To cast blame on a country that was the first victim of a pandemic with such malicious rumors is unheard of in world history. It's beyond immoral and shows American desperation at the underhanded tactics believes it must resort to along with its constant plight for help from the international community in confronting China.

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COVID caused China's reputation to go down because other countries were jealous of the effectiveness of zero covid in China while they were suffering from lockdowns, which is "unfair". Now that the situation is reversed, westerners will feel that China is finally suffering from the same, never-ending lockdowns that europe had to endure so they aren't as emotional about the pandemic anymore. Russia is also really saving China's reputation here, because compared to the russians, anybody else looks good in the west. Anti China propaganda doesn't sell that well when the TV is full of anti Russia propaganda. The US/EU focus on damaging Russia also means that there'll be little focus on harming China's technological development

supersnoop said:

Not directly related to semiconductor, but I see a lot of talk of Huawei
I had posted in the American economics thread that the Huawei "ban and replace" order was a joke because no one is acting on it due to high cost
Here is another such article just a few hours old!

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Also mentioned was the waivers granted to Hikvision, lol, such powerful sanctions!
Another case of Virtue Signalling is cheap, but "Show me the money" is hard

Click to expand...

As the life cycle of most back end IT equipment is between 5 to 7 yrs, and capital planning is based on that timeframe, it is very difficult for companies to make changes mid cycle. Rest assured that when the time comes to refresh and if by then Huawei is still banned, the equipment won't be replaced with another Huawei kit.