The person is new, so have some patience. You are an insider in the semiconductor and IC chip manufacturing industry, right? The question that he asks could be stated in this way, what Chinese company, that is not vulnerable or least vulnerable and reliant to and on Western and foreign supplies and sanctions, manufactures the most advanced IC chip nodes in terms of nm (using lithographic equipment) and what is this node in terms nm (90, 65, 40, etc?)?@mrandolph,
Are you aware of any other country designed and manufactured purely with their local tech?
China is not doing that yet. But technically China is closer to having a complete domestic tech than any country in the world as China is the only one working towards that end. So, we should consider China as the leader in that regard.
Chinese semiconductor industry
- Thread starter Hendrik_2000
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If China equips such a large facility entirely with equipment made in China that is devoid of American parts and that of those of American allies or any entity amenable to American perusaion, it will be a firm demonstration of Chinese independent technological capabilities. The United States can start a nuclear war if it wishes to out of frustration at China having demonstrated its ability to produce 28 nm chips using entirely Chinese made equipment.
@hvpc Bro sorry for the late reply, wife ask me to accompany her for grocery, so I had to comply....lol here is @Oldschool respond to your question and I said it again SMIC dual approach is the best solution, Your argument holds merits , like @weig2000 had previously stated, it can use ASML equipment while waiting for the domestic alternative to mature. This year is the expected introduction of the domestic 14nm line, which Huawei hope the Beijing SMIC can FAB their 14nm 3D chiplet. Now I don't know IF Washington DC can sanction a whole company IF a subsidiary within legal Prudence (non usage of US equipment and materials) supply Huawei.
Oldschool
Junior Member
Registered MemberToday at 1:55 PMNew
My answer to hvpc question on Beijing SMIC JV
ASML DUV is non US .
It was few years back, that Huawei was banned under Trump, it cannot use US tech to manufacture it's chips.
At that time, Beijing SMIC was planned. It was expected to pick up Huawei business, and therefore explicit demand for non US equipments.
I read somewhere in the news back then, you might want to dig around for that. Few years ago.
Actually other fabs use more domestic equipments and it just that SMIC don't trust them and never really qualify them.
So, Beijing JV demanded SMIC to qualify more domestic equipments and have to be non US so it can service the likes of Huawei. ASML is non US, so it shouldnt be a problem.
I know. I know. I thought it was clear I was just kidding with him. Was being sarcastic.
I’m sorry if it was taken the wrong way.
Yes Sir I concur, the US want your cake and eat it too, having restricted SMIC to 14nm BUT with SMIC having develop its 7nm Core competency and a domestic 7nm line is established this year or early 2023, maybe the restriction is on EUVL only until SMEE introduced a similar one in 2025?
10 minutes agoNew
Now it's 2022, the prediction is right on track.
Its too late for US to fully sanction SMIC.
It can ignore US and goes about its business.
The reason US willing to let SMIC to have tech at 28nm because it gotten words China about to have tech independence at 28nm
It still wants applied material, lam research, and KLAtencor to make money out of China market
Oldschool
Junior Member
Registered Member10 minutes agoNew
The Chinese semiconductor industry, with government help, is working hard to ensure it has all it needs to survive without foreign support, says a consultant with the China Semiconductor Industry Association.
Now it's 2022, the prediction is right on track.
Its too late for US to fully sanction SMIC.
It can ignore US and goes about its business.
The reason US willing to let SMIC to have tech at 28nm because it gotten words China about to have tech independence at 28nm
It still wants applied material, lam research, and KLAtencor to make money out of China market
@ansy1968
Thanks bro. Don’t worry about the delay, your wife comes first. Mine is out of town for a month so i Have more time to be active in this forum lately.
@Oldschool had sent me sane response already too.
this Beijing JV is 28nm and above, right? Or are they adding 14nm to its plan. This is different from info we have from SMIC. I’m a bit confused about this tidbit about 14nm
SMIC has 51% stake in this JV, no? With controlling stake in this, not sure how SMIC could hide behind the “it’s not me, it’s a JV” excuse if US want to punish them for what they do at this fab. That’s my take.
I disagree @FairAndUnbiased.
scanners are high precision tools that needs to be handled very delicately. Even immersion system takes a bigger crew of riggers and facilities team to move. The scale is way bigger than taking delivery of a etch depo or metro systems. It’s hard for people not to notice of delivery of such system.
And once in a fab, there’s traffic in the litho bay.
Between the truckers, riggers, facilities crew, engineers, technicians, operators, engineers from other vendors, and even admins that has record of SMEE personnel’s entering.
it’s hard to keep it a secret. Someone body would say something and leak the news.
maybe I’m speaking of experience from time at a higher profile fab and is different from others’ experience, but when we move in a scanner, people in the industry knows without we having to announce it. News travel fast in the semi circle. I think this SMIC JV is also high profile and wouldn’t rule out if people are watching for activities at this fab, too.
Bro I can only surmised from news I got from the Chinese and Western sources regarding a domestic 14nm line.
Jul 26, 2021 — China steadily moving towards domestic mass production of 14nm chips, which will be achieved next year, according to representative from the ...
Jun 8, 2021 — China focuses on 28nm and 14nm chips - 28nm chips form the dividing line between mid and high-end integrated circuit manufacturing.
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With @foofy indicating that the Beijing FAB will be partially or fully operation late this year, the dotted is there to connect the lined, as there may well be a parallel line for both the 28nm and 14nm.
@hvpc bro from @Skywatcher , they followed the TSMC method (since most of the top management came from), the JV is between them (mostly expertise) while the City gov't provide the land , money with other Silent investor (maybe Huawei and other Chinese tech company) chipping in. Cause constructing 2 huge FABS and a medium one simultaneously cost a lot of monieee. From my simple and naive mind, there is no drawback in investing in one of the world largest Semi market.
So I have nothing to be worried about, It seems that Huawei is in safe hand even IF they don't do an IDM.
23 minutes agoNew
Alot of companies are servicing Huawei inside China as long as they don't use US tech.
SMIC or JV can service Huawei as long as no US tech.
The exact sanction on Huawei under Trump admin
No US tech is allowed to be used in helping Huawei to manufacture its chips
I don't get worry about the JV getting trouble with US
Oldschool
Junior Member
Registered Member23 minutes agoNew
Alot of companies are servicing Huawei inside China as long as they don't use US tech.
SMIC or JV can service Huawei as long as no US tech.
The exact sanction on Huawei under Trump admin
No US tech is allowed to be used in helping Huawei to manufacture its chips
I don't get worry about the JV getting trouble with US
I don't think it's 100% necessary, the only way we know AMEC, NAURA and kingstone are delivering equipment is because they announce themselves, it wasn't the case, we wouldn't even know if they ever sold a machine. . Just because someone noticed something that most people in the factory wouldn't even care about. Most of the factory workers have to sign confidentiality agreements, which further complicates the leak of information. I guess it's the same problem with factories outside of China, the only reason we know ASML is giving away their EUV scanners is because they advertise or the factory makes a public statement. To be fair, there were rumors that the immersion scanner passed customer verification and some investors asked Shanghai Electric (the owners of SMEE) that question and they neither confirm nor deny, they just say wait for SMEE to post it on their website.
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