Chinese semiconductor industry

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hvpc

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the problem is that semiconductor industry does not pay enough in America. The smartest people go for the highest salary jobs in Silicon Valley or Wall Street (or crypto now). Whether or not the policy makers like it, American job market is going further away from Industrial Age to digital age. Why get paid $150k a year at a fab plant when you can make 500k working remotely for a crypto company? That's the problem Intel faces.


The issue here is that you don't seem to understand the labour market here in America. Talented engineers do not want to work in Arizona or in semiconductor industry. There is very high turnover for employers that don't give the kind of lifestyle that they would get from other tech firms. Among low skilled labour, the cost is ever increasing. I can guarantee you that the productivity rate in Arizona would be a fraction of what it is in Taiwan due to these reasons. So while they may announce that 1600 employees are planned, they are going to be paying a lot more people than that due to the ongoing new employee training, early termination and transitioning they are going to be dealing with. Just wait until the environmentalists start to converge in their Arizona plant a few years from now. A lot of money will need to be set aside from lobbyists and lawyers.

Just to give you an idea of turnover rate at large tech firms. In my first year out of college at Bloomberg, they told me 27% of employees there were hired in the past year. The first 2 or 3 months I was there was purely training. I really wasn't productive until at least 6 months in. Now, just consider what it would be like in Arizona where techies don't want to go.

None of this even factors in the higher corporate tax rate, payroll taxes, 401K and the outrageous health care costs we have here in America.

The other issue is that you assume that they would be able to get the same output at Arizona plant as they would from other plants. You also assume they can get the same revenue for each 5 nm chips 5 years from now. What's the point of investing in new tools and equipments if the old chips continue to bring in the same revenues? Let's never pay for upgrades or buy new machines if we can sell the current generation chips at the same price 20 years from now.

Where is the raw material costs in your calculation?
The raw material cost is factored in as part of Salary+OpEx (Cost of Revenue - depreciation....the difference accounts for salaries related to fabrication of wafers as well as the raw material).

The 401K, health care cost, etc are factor in by assuming doubling of costs in Taiwan. Do you think this is not generous enough of an assumption? What would your version of estimate look like?

This will not be a RD fab, no need for top notch people. I worked out of Austin, Boise, and Silicon Vally in my career, and in my humble opinion is that there is a gap in terms of talent needed for a RD fab vs a non-leading edge production fab where all you would expect of the engineers is to monitor the process and take care of any out of control situations. In this type of setting most of the time, the engineers rely on vendors to troubleshoot and fix the problem. Equipment & process engineers are more of a manager of suppliers. I hope you know process flow in a mass production fab is mostly automated. Why would you need top notch talent to babysit a SPC chart and follow protocol to call in the vendor to fix problems or to refine process recipes? No need for these engineers to innovate or invent anything. This is how things work in TSMC high volume manufacturing fab.

Even if more engineers are needed, the margin after equipment are fully depreciated is so high that the additional labor cost would not be much of an impact on bottom line. In terms of wafer cost, the actual wafer cost today is higher than what I used. And with 2D shrinking slowing down, we are expecting node-on-node discount (when new node is introduced) will slow down, so at 15%-20% discount by 2025, the bottom line, again, will still be pretty high.

Again, I'm merely providing a quick and dirty calculation estimate. You are free to crunch a set of number with gradually discounted wafer price, increasing wage, and take inflation into consideration, and other more refined variables into consideration. The main point I'm making is, it's not a doomsday situation for tsmc. I'm sure your more precise model or analysis will not debunk my point.
 
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tphuang

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The raw material cost is factored in as part of Salary+OpEx (Cost of Revenue - depreciation....the difference accounts for salaries related to fabrication of wafers as well as the raw material).

The 401K, health care cost, etc are factor in by assuming doubling of costs in Taiwan. Do you think this is not generous enough of an assumption? What would your version of estimate look like?

This will not be a RD fab, no need for top notch people. I worked out of Austin, Boise, and Silicon Vally in my career, and in my humble opinion is that there is a gap in terms of talent needed for a RD fab vs a non-leading edge production fab where all you would expect of the engineers is to monitor the process and take care of any out of control situations. In this type of setting most of the time, the engineers rely on vendors to troubleshoot and fix the problem. Equipment & process engineers are more of a manager of suppliers.

Even if more engineers are needed, the margin after equipment are fully depreciated is so high that the additional labor cost would not be much of an impact on bottom line. In terms of wafer cost, the actual wafer cost today is higher than what I used. And with 2D shrinking slowing down, we are expecting node-on-node discount (when new node is introduced) will slow down, so at 15%-20% discount by 2025, the bottom line, again, will still be pretty high.
Let's put it this way. One of my best friend works in Taiwan in the semiconductor industry because it's the highest paid industry there. We graduated from the same school with similar degrees. My company here in NY probably spends 7 times as much on my salary and other things as his company does with him in Taiwan. Taiwan salaries are just so low.

Now, I don't expect the differences in semiconductor industry to be as high if you don't need top notch people, but productivity will definitely be lower in America compared to Taiwan. On top of that, you still need to factor in the lawyer cost, the lobbyist cost, the environmentalist cost, higher utility costs.

Maybe we need to take a look at how Foxconn did in Wisconsin as a cautionary tale on how well Taiwanese corporate culture would translate to America.
 

hvpc

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Let's put it this way. One of my best friend works in Taiwan in the semiconductor industry because it's the highest paid industry there. We graduated from the same school with similar degrees. My company here in NY probably spends 7 times as much on my salary and other things as his company does with him in Taiwan. Taiwan salaries are just so low.

Now, I don't expect the differences in semiconductor industry to be as high if you don't need top notch people, but productivity will definitely be lower in America compared to Taiwan. On top of that, you still need to factor in the lawyer cost, the lobbyist cost, the environmentalist cost, higher utility costs.

Maybe we need to take a look at how Foxconn did in Wisconsin as a cautionary tale on how well Taiwanese corporate culture would translate to America.
good discussion...and you brought up good points of concern. but I just don't see these changing the number much to change my current inference that AZ fab will not be a catastrophe for tsmc....the net income would surely be lower than my rough estimate, but even if it drops the profit margin by 20%, isn't 60ish% profit still very good?

What I calculated is actually gross margin. gross margin in the 80% range is pretty good. Net income at 60% range is very good.

All the other expenses you mentioned falls under Other operating expenses. The AZ fab will not have any (very low) RD expenses, and the administrative salary that typically fall outside of Cost of Revenue is also very low (1-2% of revenue at tsmc). lawyer fee, lobby cost, misc. cost would not be significant enough to wipe out the high gross profit to a point that tsmc is losing money.
 
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Michaelsinodef

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good discussion...and you brought up good points of concern. but I just don't see these changing the number much to change my current inference that AZ fab will not be a catastrophe for tsmc....the net income would surely be lower than my rough estimate, but even if it drops the profit margin by 20%, isn't 60ish% profit still very good?

What I calculated is actually gross margin. gross margin in the 80% range is pretty good. Net income at 60% range is very good.

All the other expenses you mentioned falls under Other operating expenses. The AZ fab will not have any (very low) RD expenses, and the administrative salary that typically fall outside of Cost of Revenue is also very low (1-2% of revenue at tsmc). lawyer fee, lobby cost, misc. cost would not be significant enough to wipe out the high gross profit to a point that tsmc is losing money.
I think it's safe to say that it should be able to generate profit, but the thing is.
Instead of investing heavily and spending time and resources on the Arizona fab, why not build a new in Taiwan or China? Or expand existing ones?

Basically if you're a big business/firm and you have the option between A and B where A is just PLAINLY inferior to B (in terms of profit), it's 100% a bad choice to do.

Not to mention, there's a very real chance of a war happening over Taiwan, and the people at tsmc should rightfully be scared of what will happen to their business.
And even if a war doesn't happen, reunification will 100% happen and I give it a 95%+ chance of it being this decade. So likewise we're gonna see the US gonna try and poach tsmc employees etc.
 

tphuang

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good discussion...and you brought up good points of concern. but I just don't see these changing the number much to change my current inference that AZ fab will not be a catastrophe for tsmc....the net income would surely be lower than my rough estimate, but even if it drops the profit margin by 20%, isn't 60ish% profit still very good?

What I calculated is actually gross margin. gross margin in the 80% range is pretty good. Net income at 60% range is very good.

All the other expenses you mentioned falls under Other operating expenses. The AZ fab will not have any (very low) RD expenses, and the administrative salary that typically fall outside of Cost of Revenue is also very low (1-2% of revenue at tsmc). lawyer fee, lobby cost, misc. cost would not be significant enough to wipe out the high gross profit to a point that tsmc is losing money.

We already discussed that you are overly optimistic on the revenue generation capabilities of this plant (especially after the equipment are amortized in 5 years), since the Arizona plant is likely to yield fewer chips and 5 nm prices will go down in 2022 dollars. We also discussed that cost in America could be 4 or 5 times that of Taiwan. I'm not sure how you get to 60% profit.

This was a great tweet by Dan Price
this is for a non-tech customer service position. 70k+ in salary, 401k, full benefits and parental leaves. lol. That's the market going rate for your lowest paid employees. Now, let's add in payroll tax, electricity cost, raw material cost and other opex for that employee.
 

hvpc

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I think it's safe to say that it should be able to generate profit, but the thing is.
Instead of investing heavily and spending time and resources on the Arizona fab, why not build a new in Taiwan or China? Or expand existing ones?

Basically if you're a big business/firm and you have the option between A and B where A is just PLAINLY inferior to B (in terms of profit), it's 100% a bad choice to do.

Not to mention, there's a very real chance of a war happening over Taiwan, and the people at tsmc should rightfully be scared of what will happen to their business.
And even if a war doesn't happen, reunification will 100% happen and I give it a 95%+ chance of it being this decade. So likewise we're gonna see the US gonna try and poach tsmc employees etc.
Yes. that's my point. AZ fab is most definitely tsmc's first choice, but it will make okay to good money long term.

And I would not dispute your remaining points, they are all likely.
 

tokenanalyst

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Let's put it this way. One of my best friend works in Taiwan in the semiconductor industry because it's the highest paid industry there. We graduated from the same school with similar degrees. My company here in NY probably spends 7 times as much on my salary and other things as his company does with him in Taiwan. Taiwan salaries are just so low.

Now, I don't expect the differences in semiconductor industry to be as high if you don't need top notch people, but productivity will definitely be lower in America compared to Taiwan. On top of that, you still need to factor in the lawyer cost, the lobbyist cost, the environmentalist cost, higher utility costs.

Maybe we need to take a look at how Foxconn did in Wisconsin as a cautionary tale on how well Taiwanese corporate culture would translate to America.
Is not just salary, is also working culture, the working culture in East Asia is very different from the U.S.
 

hvpc

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We already discussed that you are overly optimistic on the revenue generation capabilities of this plant (especially after the equipment are amortized in 5 years), since the Arizona plant is likely to yield fewer chips and 5 nm prices will go down in 2022 dollars. We also discussed that cost in America could be 4 or 5 times that of Taiwan. I'm not sure how you get to 60% profit.

This was a great tweet by Dan Price
this is for a non-tech customer service position. 70k+ in salary, 401k, full benefits and parental leaves. lol. That's the market going rate for your lowest paid employees. Now, let's add in payroll tax, electricity cost, raw material cost and other opex for that employee.
Alright, I think you just want to nitpick. Let's try to do it this way, why don't you come up with your numbers and let me know if it shows this AZ fab would not be relatively profitable.
 

ansy1968

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Alright, I think you just want to nitpick. Let's try to do it this way, why don't you come up with your numbers and let me know if it shows this AZ fab would not be relatively profitable.
@hvpc bro sorry to disrupt your discussion, I just want to chime in, with such a huge project with multiple FABS , where will they get their water supply? Will that add to the cost IF they sources it elsewhere? or the State will take care of it?
 
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