Chinese semiconductor industry

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latenlazy

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i am sure many are involved in the innovation.

for now, I’m just curious how many are responsible for integrating all the innovations together and to make it production worthy.

I am not trying to debate you. Trying to calibrate with info I have. Perhaps the SMEE team is larger than my assumption, in which case I should calibrate my own speculations.

I just feel like you all think things are fairly simple and basically belittling what my peers in the fabs and the WFE company and i had labored through for years and years. So our expertise, experience through trial and error, and our hardwork are basically or little wirth and can be easily duplicated?
EUV isn’t SMEE’s effort alone, and it isn’t the only firm working on this project, so asking how big SMEE’s team is is a bit beside the point. Besides, anyone who’s worked on an engineering project would know that you don’t need an absurd amount of manpower to do engineering projects. You need enough of the *right* manpower. Engineering projects don’t scale with the size of a team. Since you’re so well connected surely you can find out how big SMEE’s team is?
 
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hvpc

Junior Member
Registered Member
ICRD joint venture with Huawei to setup a new domestic equipment's fab with 20,000 wafer per month production rate. I think should be ready next few months.
This is the same outfit that I was calling ICRD Jiading. I was corrected by my engineer that these guys are now called CICEM.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
May I ask what is your definition of ”production capable” is? Based on your perspective, when do you think SMEE production capable system will be available?

side question, anyone know how big the SMEE engineering team is? How many dedicated to immersion, how many for EUV? I’m just curious.

And for the record, my personal guesstimate is that China will have a production ready EUV machine between 2025 and 2030. The component technologies are mostly already developed, but system integration and testing is the most time consuming part of product development and can be a bit open ended. The machine doesn’t need to be competitive with ASML to be usable in production though, seeing as without the EUV embargo lifted Chinese fabs won’t have a lot of alternatives. If cost is a concern it’s very likely the Chinese government will subsidize for production like it’s doing for development.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I gather that, from his post, hvpc for some reason looks at China's Semiconductor Equipment development from a very low base with just a few scientific papers to show for without anything tangible.

I'm not sure he is aware that those scientific papers frequently involve test proofing with real physical working equipment.
Well, more importantly, the quirks behind generating high quantities of EUV photon emissions is now very well understood within the broader scientific literature, much more than in 2006 when ASML was making prototype instruments that could only generate enough output for process node research. Chinese efforts here don’t have to re-invent the wheel. Their pool of knowledge is bigger than what they research on their own. There are still going to be patent barriers and implementation challenges when pursuing the specific engineering solutions needed to create a product, but it’s not like what ASML did is some secret special engineering. Other firms were converging on solutions too. They exited not because they couldn’t do the engineering but because they didn’t see an attractive market. The lack of competition is due to business decisions, not engineering barriers.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
i am sure many are involved in the innovation. But you do realize the industry also work with many research organizations, right?

for now, I’m just curious how many are responsible for integrating all the innovations together and to make it production worthy.

I am not trying to debate you. I’m just trying to calibrate info I have. Perhaps the SMEE team is larger than my assumption, in which case I should re-calibrate my own speculations.
@hvpc Oh! bro no problem from your post I learn a lot so let's get going :) .
I just feel like you all think things are fairly simple and basically belittling what my peers in the fabs and the WFE companies and i had labored through for years and years. So our expertise, experience through trial and error, and our hardwork are basically of little worth and can be easily duplicated?
Actually I'm a novice so yeah your criticism is valid BUT it doesn't conclude that what we're speculating are not true. I can discern and even that decision is Faith based it's China we're talking about, a country that make the impossible possible. The opaqueness of the Chinese IC industries is what make this thread interesting, we have members who actually knew what is happening inside China and for them to share that info is heaven sent, so bro I'm all ears we are here to learn and share knowledge so bring it on.:)
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
SMIC Beijing will be ready in May.
@foofy thank you sir and that was fast very fast, I think the urgency is the reason for fast tracking this project, this FAB is capable of producing 100,000 wafer pm and using domestic equipment there is a lot of misinformation the western media reported the year 2024 and since the Chinese are tight lipped it become an actual news.

SMIC's new Beijing plant, with a total investment of nearly 50 billion yuan, is expected to start operations in 2024, with monthly production capacity of 100,000 12-inch silicon wafers.Aug 6, 2021

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Feb 23, 2021 — SMIC Jingcheng's Phase I project is currently under construction and is expected to cost approximately RMB 7.6 billion and will have a capacity ...
 
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