Chinese semiconductor industry

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european_guy

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tphuang said:
And why would China not want to have access to the European market? It's a huge market. If China can negotiate from a position of strength, it can enter partnerships on terms that it likes. Keep in mind that China has gained a lot over the years from its partnership with Europe. I can gave you a full list of military projects that received European help.

If you don't talk/negotiate, you will never know what kind of opportunities are out there. That should be a lesson in life for everyone.


That is factually false. France and Germany opposed it in UN. This was very well known. The relationship with France go so bad that US senators got their cafeteria menu to change "French Fries" to "Freedom fries"
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This is my point of view as an European (that has traveled the world _a lot_ including in China)

1) We are definitely under US strong influence, we are not totally independent. The reason for this is historical and is valid also until today as this war in Ukraine shows it really well.

2) The biggest majority of europeans have nothing against China, indeed we respect and admire China for what has been able to achieve to improve the life of his people. To really understand Europe you have to differentiate between newspapers (that are strictly under US control) / politicians (also never against US, otherwise their career ends soon) on one side and European people on the other side. We fully understand this split, and we are also used to this (it's always been like this), so it is something we have learned to live with, but maybe is not so clear for foreigners.

3) Europe is an aggregation of small states, for this reason not only we are not used to negotiate from a position of strength (actually we are used to negotiate from a position of weakness), but we also deeply don't like this approach. We much prefer a win-win approach because we believe in a long term relationships, and this is also my job experience.

4) Nobody (not politically motivated) in Europe blames China for COVID or believes the US propaganda about Uyghurs. Europe did not boycott winter Olympics and we, simple citizens, have been very happy of this (also because at least once in a while we succeed in stopping US pressures, that is rare).

5) I fully understand the point of many people here: as long as Europe is under US influence, it should be treated as an US influenced actor. I also, very unfortunately, have to agree with it.

6) The biggest and by far most important factor that divides us is the different political system. In Europe we have systems with many political parties and with frequent changes at the helm. We strongly believe in the concept of rotating the leadership (Huawei like :) ) but the root reason for this is not because we don't like China, but because when, historically in Europe there have been single parties systems, it always ended in tragedy and war. So we have a very bad experience with that system.
 
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ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
european_guy said:
This is my point of view as an European (that has traveled the world _a lot_ including in China)

1) We are definitely under US strong influence, we are not totally independent. The reason for this is historical and is valid also until today as this war in Ukraine shows it really well.

2) The biggest majority of europeans have nothing against China, indeed we respect and admire China for what has been able to achieve to improve the life of his people. To really understand Europe you have to differentiate between newspapers (that are strictly under US control) / politicians (also never against US, otherwise their career ends soon) on one side and European people on the other side. We fully understand this split, and we are also used to this (it's always been like this), so it is something we have learned to live with, but maybe is not so clear for foreigners.

3) Europe is an aggregation of small states, for this reason not only we are not used to negotiate from a position of strength (actually we are used to negotiate from a position of weakness), but we also deeply don't like this approach. We much prefer a win-win approach because we believe in a long term relationships, and this is also my job experience.

4) Nobody (not politically motivated) in Europe blames China for COVID or believes the US propaganda about Uyghurs. Europe did not boycott winter Olympics and we, simple citizens, have been very happy of this (also because at least once in a while we succeed in stopping US pressures, that is rare).

5) I fully understand the point of many people here: as long as Europe is under US influence, it should be treated as an US influenced actor. I also, very unfortunately, have to agree with it.

6) The biggest and by far most important factor that divides us is the different political system. In Europe we have systems with many political parties and with frequent changes at the helm. We strongly believe in the concept of rotating the leadership (Huawei like :) ) but the root reason for this is not because we don't like China, but because when, historically in Europe there have been single parties systems, it always ended in tragedy and war. So we have a very bad experience with that system.
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@european_guy nice analysis bro and IF I may add, religion may played a part for the so called mistrust ( Eastern barbarian savages) especially during the Dark ages as the Golden Hordes ravages Europe.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
european_guy said:
This is my point of view as an European (that has traveled the world _a lot_ including in China)

1) We are definitely under US strong influence, we are not totally independent. The reason for this is historical and is valid also until today as this war in Ukraine shows it really well.

2) The biggest majority of europeans have nothing against China, indeed we respect and admire China for what has been able to achieve to improve the life of his people. To really understand Europe you have to differentiate between newspapers (that are strictly under US control) / politicians (also never against US, otherwise their career ends soon) on one side and European people on the other side. We fully understand this split, and we are also used to this (it's always been like this), so it is something we have learned to live with, but maybe is not so clear for foreigners.

3) Europe is an aggregation of small states, for this reason not only we are not used to negotiate from a position of strength (actually we are used to negotiate from a position of weakness), but we also deeply don't like this approach. We much prefer a win-win approach because we believe in a long term relationships, and this is also my job experience.

4) Nobody (not politically motivated) in Europe blames China for COVID or believes the US propaganda about Uyghurs. Europe did not boycott winter Olympics and we, simple citizens, have been very happy of this (also because at least once in a while we succeed in stopping US pressures, that is rare).

5) I fully understand the point of many people here: as long as Europe is under US influence, it should be treated as an US influenced actor. I also, very unfortunately, have to agree with it.

6) The biggest and by far most important factor that divides us is the different political system. In Europe we have systems with many political parties and with frequent changes at the helm. We strongly believe in the concept of rotating the leadership (Huawei like :) ) but the root reason for this is not because we don't like China, but because when, historically in Europe there have been single parties systems, it always ended in tragedy and war. So we have a very bad experience with that system.
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I hope these things you say on how China is perceived in Europe are true. With American media, nobody has any idea what's the truth here. We think North Koreans live in huts... then see videos of the beautiful tours taking place in their cities filled with apartments that any average New Yorker would envy. We hear that everybody in Taiwan wants independence and hates China... then I realize that 90% of the Taiwanese people I meet have a balanced view and a strong grip on their Chinese culture/identity (with some asking me to speak Chinese to them because we are all Chinese). We hear that everyone in Europe has the same anti-China feelings as the US... then I hear your side of it. I hope it is correct.
 
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Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
dengyeye said:
I don't care who you are, if you have US bases in your country, you are never truly independent, and at worst a semi-colony (Japan). Even Singapore, with a Han Chinese majority, and whose entire geopolitical strategy revolves around playing both sides, 'chose' to sanction Russia and abandon Huawei.
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Singapore is now being sanctioned by China and Hong Kong. These singapore people need to be re-educated.
 
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Annihilation98 said:
I dont want rumor. I want real progress with evidence. Where is N+1,2,3,4,5 they talked about since 2 years ago. Atleast SMIC should do 12nm for small progress instead stuck and stay 14nm like forever. Forget about 7nm or euv just do atleast 12 nm.
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10-12 nm is not fundamentally different than 14 nm or 7 nm and even TSMC has abandoned it in favor of staying at 14 nm and moving on to 7 nm.

But yes, there's plenty of information about N+1, which is SMIC's 7 nm. It has been shown multiple times to sequentially reach prototype stage, then
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, then
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, and all that was a long time ago.
 
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

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ZeEa5KPul said:
How many should I have been to? All the evidence I see indicates they're typical McDemocracy franchises. I have a completely off-topic question but I think it gets to the heart of an important issue: How come there's isn't a single democracy that's hostile to the US? You'd think there'd be one if only by chance, but every single one is just a carbon copy of the US philosophically and rhetorically. Mocking it as McDemocracy is unfair - there's a lot more variation between McDonald's restaurants.
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There is! Iran. It is a presidential capitalist democracy, maybe with some more religion than they're used to but otherwise people go to polls, vote in competitive elections, have candidates with widely varying economic and foreign policy, etc.

Even US tacitly admits this when they say they cheer "reformers" winning and denounce it when "hardliners" win. But guess what US calls them. I don't think it is "presidential capitalist democracy".
 
tphuang

tphuang

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european_guy said:
This is my point of view as an European (that has traveled the world _a lot_ including in China)

1) We are definitely under US strong influence, we are not totally independent. The reason for this is historical and is valid also until today as this war in Ukraine shows it really well.

2) The biggest majority of europeans have nothing against China, indeed we respect and admire China for what has been able to achieve to improve the life of his people. To really understand Europe you have to differentiate between newspapers (that are strictly under US control) / politicians (also never against US, otherwise their career ends soon) on one side and European people on the other side. We fully understand this split, and we are also used to this (it's always been like this), so it is something we have learned to live with, but maybe is not so clear for foreigners.

3) Europe is an aggregation of small states, for this reason not only we are not used to negotiate from a position of strength (actually we are used to negotiate from a position of weakness), but we also deeply don't like this approach. We much prefer a win-win approach because we believe in a long term relationships, and this is also my job experience.

4) Nobody (not politically motivated) in Europe blames China for COVID or believes the US propaganda about Uyghurs. Europe did not boycott winter Olympics and we, simple citizens, have been very happy of this (also because at least once in a while we succeed in stopping US pressures, that is rare).

5) I fully understand the point of many people here: as long as Europe is under US influence, it should be treated as an US influenced actor. I also, very unfortunately, have to agree with it.

6) The biggest and by far most important factor that divides us is the different political system. In Europe we have systems with many political parties and with frequent changes at the helm. We strongly believe in the concept of rotating the leadership (Huawei like :) ) but the root reason for this is not because we don't like China, but because when, historically in Europe there have been single parties systems, it always ended in tragedy and war. So we have a very bad experience with that system.
Click to expand...

Sure, I think you will find there are also different view points on this forum, because there are Chinese expats from different part of the world and other Asians and other people that may support China doing well.

I haven't been to any European countries since COVID. I've kept vacations to the Western Hemisphere due to border closures and such. I'm probably more optimistic of China/Europe relationship than others here due to where the relationships were at in the first few years of Trump presidency and also during my time across Europe.

And more importantly, China has received a lot of help from European companies in its modernization, including military. So, it makes no sense to me for China to just turn off European cooperation completely in the future. After all, they still work with the Europeans on various projects like Z-15 and WZ-16. China is also the top export destination of dual use goods from Germany. I do disagree with you on the COVID part, since I saw a lot of surveys where views toward China from across the country (including European countries) took huge dips in the past couple of years. But I think those things are recoverable. There is no reason for China to just abandon future cooperations with Europe, because they buckled under US pressure a couple of times. China will just need to get itself into a stronger position in order to be able to offer enough to Europe so that they can resist US pressure.

In the end of the day, Chinese leadership/companies are not stupid. If they can see a deal in semiconductor industry that's favorable to them, they will do it. Of course, they need to make themselves sanction proof first.
 
X

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member
FairAndUnbiased said:
10-12 nm is not fundamentally different than 14 nm or 7 nm and even TSMC has abandoned it in favor of staying at 14 nm and moving on to 7 nm.

But yes, there's plenty of information about N+1, which is SMIC's 7 nm. It has been shown multiple times to sequentially reach prototype stage, then
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, then
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, and all that was a long time ago.
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I think "N+1" is 8 nm (I remember reading some article which pointed out that the density was comparable to Samsung's 8 nm node), while "N+2" is 7 nm.
 
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