Chinese semiconductor industry

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gelgoog

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spaceship9876 said:
If you wanted to make 5nm, 65nm and 130nm chips would it not be cheaper to buy the asml 2050i and use for all of these rather than buying 3 machines?
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It is like @FairAndUnbiased said, older machines are typically cheaper, and you can project more area in one step so you get more areal output per unit of time.

tokenanalyst said:
The plant currently has nine production lines for 8-inch wafers and two high-tech production lines for 12-inch wafers, with a total yearly production capacity of 2.4 million 300 mm wafers, 5.4 million 200 mm wafers and 4.8 million 150 mm wafers. FerroTec Hangzhou Semiconductor Wafer Co., Ltd strives to be one of the world's leading suppliers of semiconductor wafers, and realize the true nature of "smart manufacturing in China" in the semiconductor silicon material industry.
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Wow. Just amazing. To put this under perspective.
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"Global demand for 12-inch silicon wafers in 2018 was about 5.86 million pieces/month, of which 1.5 million pieces/month for logic chips, 1.4 million pieces/month for DRAM, and 1.8 million pieces/month for NAND, including NORFlash, CIS and others are 1.2 million pieces/month; 8-inch silicon wafers require 5.54 million pieces/month, which is converted to 12-inch wafers by the area of about 2.45 million pieces/month."

So that is over 8% of global demand for 2018 in one plant.
 
FairAndUnbiased

FairAndUnbiased

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dengyeye said:
As China also has to produce all the equipment for DUV and EUV, would it be correct to say SMEE is 12-15 years behind ASML?
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there is no such thing really as X years behind in this case. it's a feel good thing for some industry outsiders for bragging points but the reality is lithography is extremely hard to break into and there's so many market segments. Having a competitor in this industry is already better than 99% of countries out there.

would you say Canon is stone age compared to ASML for not even having ArF lithography and only having KrF? Well they're the 3rd/4th biggest lithography company in the world. They sell lithography for older nodes, microcontroller, display, power, RF, sensor, optoelectronics, R&D, etc. and whose to say that stuff is useless? You're gonna watch a TV chip and not a TV screen?

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Meanwhile, SMEE has made a great deal of progress in the back-end advanced packaging and LED/MEMS/power devices area. In the former segment, the company holds over 80% of the domestic and nearly 40% of the global market; its share in the global LED/MEMS/power devices lithography equipment industry is around 20%.
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tokenanalyst

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FairAndUnbiased said:
no, absolutely not. the cost difference is gigantic. let's look at dry (1470k) vs immersion lithography (2050i).

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Dry lithography is typically more productive as well. 1470k
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2050i produces
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This is easy to understand: the immersion system adds a new complication: the water handling.
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It requires expensive mechanisms to account for all these complications, you have to change to totally different photoresists, etc. It isn't easy and is very costly.

Dry lithography is far far far simpler than immersion because you don't have to worry about any of this which is reflected in the cost and the productivity.

Then you have older machines. This isn't a quote but typically you can get old dry ArF machines for ~5-10 million even with 100% brand new OEM parts. You can literally be producing profit on month 1 after install for a dry process while for immersion you're still not making money for years.
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Immersion is more used for critical layers, for the less critical they use dry ArF and even i-line machines.
 
56860

56860

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ougoah said:
The US has been doing that for a long time. Forced tech transfer doesn't mean they're incapable of their own tech (obviously!) or that they depend on it (again obviously). Contrary to the same conclusions made for China... where even if China got 1% from forced tech transfer or learning/studying/copying, then 100% of China's efforts and progress is nulled/dismissed by the internet academics. The levels of their self delusions are both funny and actually good because self delusion never serves any decent goal, only fooling themselves into believing false realities. The problem here is the western leaders and decision makers only talk as if this is the case to undermine China and Chinese people (while serving their racist beliefs in intelligence creativity etc LOL) BUT they actually act on it knowing the full truth, that without their constant distortions of truth and disrupting China every single chance it gets (and justifying it with flimsy moralistic models they created themselves) they know China would even sooner rise towards becoming a peer level in overall tech. They say one thing but truly believe and act upon the truth. This is what makes the US a formidable enemy. Their elites are actually logical and cunning. In contrast to for example India where the elites are actually either morons or half baked and they fully believe and act upon delusional thinking and misunderstanding.

US is a tech giant in and of itself. It just also gets to have full access on anything it truly wants from its allies and vassals. It's always been that way since the Cold War. Germany and France have experienced this before... usually they don't bother and it's all kept rather in the academic sphere along with cooperative efforts but sometimes they simply just go for it. Since they lead more or less, there is far less they want from others but if they ever begin slipping more, we'll see this much more often. This is why overall, the US is the supreme tech overlord of the world in just about every single field. China is a distant but certain second overall. Against the US in tech is basically China vs US + all of western Europe + Japan + South Korea + Taiwan.
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What's your definition of how tech advanced a country is? Just curious.
 
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tokenanalyst

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Samsung's main customers transfer orders: the problem of yield and heat dissipation​


The successive "bad news" caused Samsung to encounter an obvious "cold spring" in early 2022. It is revealed that the GPU leader NVIDIA will release the RTX 40 series using the 5nm process in September this year, and it is confirmed that it will cooperate with TSMC. Previously, the NVIDIA RTX 30 series was mainly produced using Samsung's 8nm process. In addition, Qualcomm is said to have handed over part of the foundry orders for its 4nm AP processor Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 to TSMC.

According to industry analysis, the key point of Qualcomm's transfer order is that the yield rate of Samsung's Snapdragon 8Gen1 is about 35%, while that of TSMC is over 70%. In addition, the heat problem of the Snapdragon 8 produced by Samsung is also serious.

The two major customers "departed" at the same time, so Samsung had to "fight the fire" with all its strength. After all, if the "reputation" cannot be restored in a short period of time, it will not only affect the current revenue and profit performance, but also the "dream" of looking at one another in the future seems to be further and further away.
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With Samsung having yield problems and Taiwan power outages, i think the idea of having a decent cheap GPU will be a distant dream for the time being.
 
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