Chinese semiconductor industry

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horse

Colonel
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The author (Ben Thompson) has an undergraduate major in English; he is based in Taiwan. He did work for Apple, Microsoft before.

Just remembered something.

Remember how they wanted to ban US companies from selling equipment to SMIC?

Then later, then had to redo the ban again.

Since that they could use 28nm tools to try to get to the 14nm node.

So they had to do the ban again.

December 18, 2020
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December 9, 2021
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One year later, the US Justice League realizes that their initial ban will not work, for what they want to do.

One whole year! Guess everyone else forgot about it.

They are the ones writing the laws!

Good thing for SMIC no one asked that English major how to write those exclusionary laws.

WTF is this?! Haha! Haha!

:p
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
This is the part I am quite confused. Does all the semiconductors and lithography machines banned by the US from shipping to China also apply to Russia right now, or are US tech sanctions on China currently more tough than those on Russia?

If Russia did try to buy those machines I can guess at what would happen. The sanctions mechanism they use was originally devised to hurt the Soviet electronics industry in the first place.
 

supersnoop

Major
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Just a few clarifications...

Even if the design changed to a different architecture it will still have to be fabricated somewhere. Due to the costs involved it will be much cheaper to use a foundry than to build your own fabrication facilities. I do not see how RISC-V will change the current dynamic towards foundries being more relevant. Also I think ARM pretty much has the smartphone market locked in by this point. RISC-V would have to come through in things like cheap IoT devices and the like if it is to have a chance I think.

But Intel already tried selling foundry services and failed. There is no evidence they will do better this time. I think this is just talk by Intel so they can get US and European funds to increase capacity.

I don't think it will change the dynamic. I only think there might be some opportunity for other foundries exposed by any shift away from ARM. As I understand, some of TSMC's current strength is that they have the best libraries for low power ARM designs. So I think the last Snapdragon (888?) was dual sourced between TSMC and Samsung, but TSMC was still running cooler/consuming less power at the same nominal process size.

The failure of the initial push as I understand and the previous article pointed out was mainly because Intel's foundries required Intel tools to build. They were not industry standard, so people didn't want to learn to use them. Some reports also said they were not really suitable for things like low power SoCs, and geared towards complex CPUs. According to this "2.0" strategy, they will adopt more industry standard layout tools like Cadence. (Again, basically the limits of my technical knowledge here)

Overall, I do agree the strategy is driven a lot by the carrots being dangled by western governments. You see the announcement today for their new facility in Ohio and there were strong hints to the need for more incentives.

You just contradicted yourself. Apple designs their own ARM processors. Also Qualcomm does have lots of competition besides Samsung with Exynos among Android CPU vendors. MediaTek for example is a major competitor which even has their own modem designs.

Just to clarify what I meant, Apple is obviously a special case. They are not selling their designs and 100% of the production is for their own platform. Therefore it is not competition in the CPU space, at least not in the way Qualcomm vs. Mediatek vs. Unisoc, etc. is.

Qualcomm does have competition, but not really in the high end/high margin space, at least not much serious competition in the last 5 years. Intel as we know loves high margins which is how they got sucked away from low power optimization in the first place.

In the low to mid range markets, you don't need the cutting edge processes to extract maximum performance. I think Unisoc is still using 14nm.

As you noted, most of the surviving SoC vendors have integrated modems, that includes Samsung. Intel's failure in this respect probably would have doomed it's effort even with ARM/XScale, which was my point.

As an aside, HiSilicon was probably Qualcomm's big threat. It had the most capable modem at the time and comparable performance. Was Huawei willing to sell to outside vendors? There were some beliefs that it would because it would help their more upstream network equipment sales.

Intel is not this all conquering company. They routinely fail at a lot of things. This is just yet another one of them.
Lol, I owned a K6 remember? That was followed by an Athlon. I also owned an iMac G4 lampshade style. I’m not Intel’s fan at all, but I wouldn’t count them out
 

Hyper

Junior Member
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IMHO Intel is an extremely founder dependent corporation. After Noyce , Moore and Grove ( who in my opinion is the greatest boss in silicon valley ever and in the entire semiconductor industry above Morris Chang and Gordon Moore) retired, their CEOs made one bad decision after another and botched many acquisitions . Especially Brian Krzanich is so fucking hated among gamers. Their downfall began when they bribed dell in the mid 2000s to dump AMD. Intel can only be at the top if Grove comes back from the grave and Moore comes back from retirement. There is no other way.
 

dfrtyhgj

Junior Member
Registered Member
IMHO Intel is an extremely founder dependent corporation. After Noyce , Moore and Grove ( who in my opinion is the greatest boss in silicon valley ever and in the entire semiconductor industry above Morris Chang and Gordon Moore) retired, their CEOs made one bad decision after another and botched many acquisitions . Especially Brian Krzanich is so fucking hated among gamers. Their downfall began when they bribed dell in the mid 2000s to dump AMD. Intel can only be at the top if Grove comes back from the grave and Moore comes back from retirement. There is no other way.
Intel is like 99% Indian now, there is no way to recover from it.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is the part I am quite confused. Does all the semiconductors and lithography machines banned by the US from shipping to China also apply to Russia right now, or are US tech sanctions on China currently more tough than those on Russia?
Russia has a small semiconductor industry so the banning of the sales of SME and software will not affect them too much, what the neocons are proposing is worse than that, they are proposing to ban the sales to Russia of any chip or technology made using U.S. equipment and software, even if the Chip was made by SMIC (which it is under sanctions on its own), if its use an Applied Materials equipment it cannot be shipped to Russia. That is what they are proposing, That will basically ban most electronics from being shipped to Russia. Is the Huawei sanctions but in steroids.
Again, even though they will no go that far and push that nuclear button, this is a warning to Russia that they should collaborate with the Chinese to create a less susceptible to destruction semiconductor and electronic industry, the Russian have a lot of talents in physics, chemistry, math and software that could push the industry forward.
 

dfrtyhgj

Junior Member
Registered Member
Russia has a small semiconductor industry so the banning of the sales of SME and software will not affect them too much, what the neocons are proposing is worse than that, they are proposing to ban the sales to Russia of any chip or technology made using U.S. equipment and software, even if the Chip was made by SMIC (which it is under sanctions on its own), if its use an Applied Materials equipment it cannot be shipped to Russia. That is what they are proposing, That will basically ban most electronics from being shipped to Russia. Is the Huawei sanctions but in steroids.
Again, even though they will no go that far and push that nuclear button, this is a warning to Russia that they should collaborate with the Chinese to create a less susceptible to destruction semiconductor and electronic industry, the Russian have a lot of talents in physics, chemistry, math and software that could push the industry forward.
Russia will just take over all of Europe instead. They have to, in order to keep their Euro assets. Globohomo is about to be defeated.
 

Topazchen

Junior Member
Registered Member
Intel is like 99% Indian now, there is no way to recover from it.
There's a lot of derision here on Intel and how they are going down and will never recover which I think is misplaced.
Intel just announced a 20 billion fab in Ohio and has 100% backing of the US to beat TSMC. From assisting them with cheap loans to leaking Asian fab secrets to them , the US government is determined to see Intel, beat TSMC. We are now even seeing them get priority shipment for the latest ASML lithos.
Intel might have many Indians working there but do not underestimate them.

Again I don't hear people saying Microsoft, Google and very many other fortune 500 tech companies headed by Indians are going down. They are infact thriving.
 

Skywatcher

Captain
There's a lot of derision here on Intel and how they are going down and will never recover which I think is misplaced.
Intel just announced a 20 billion fab in Ohio and has 100% backing of the US to beat TSMC. From assisting them with cheap loans to leaking Asian fab secrets to them , the US government is determined to see Intel, beat TSMC. We are now even seeing them get priority shipment for the latest ASML lithos.
Intel might have many Indians working there but do not underestimate them.

Again I don't hear people saying Microsoft, Google and very many other fortune 500 tech companies headed by Indians are going down. They are infact thriving.
Indian run companies in Silicon Valley seem to fare as well as their counterparts in general.

Intel's problem is its institutional hubris (which seems to have doomed another once leader in its industry, Nikon (who also choose a weird technical solution and also bit off more than its internal R&D team could handle).
 
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