Chinese SAM

I used the source that you told me to refer 2. No the PLA does have its own missiles called the ks-1, the HQ-9, HQ-7, etc. I've read about the HQ-15. Most sites says that the PLA might get a liscense to build it indigenously including fas and sinodefence. The only site that seems to be suggest that its already being produced indigenously is missilethreat. The HQ-16 seems to still be under development.

slackpiv, HQ-9 is not the same as S-300. It was actually designed using knowledge from S-300 and guidance of PAC-2. The naval version probably also drew some ideas from Rif, but they are not the same thing. The status of HQ-16 is really confusing at the moment. It's unclear whether it's a super tor-m1 and super-shtil.

HQ-15 is confusing too. I thought it already started, but I haven't found any evidence of HQ-15 battalion in China.

well slacky, how should I put this.

F-22's specifications are more or less classified, that is true, however, the principles behind geometric EM diversion and RAM material is quite well understood.

I'm curious, do you have an engineering background?

I have actually come across some very elementary deflection/reflection characteristics, and it turns out a lot of materials are band sensitive. On top of that, apparently a lot of currently manufactured composites are band sensitive to a generally specific spectrum. You can even say that some of these materials are engineered to precisely diffuse well known and widely used EM emissions. Now if I were to build an anti stealth system, I would obviously pick a very novel frequency band to use, and this is, really, the general approach to all the anti stealth systems I've read about.

Now actually engaging such aircrafts are, of course, difficult, because the band these systems work with are not very well suited for tracking and illumination of fighter sized targets, and I will say that to actually shoot down, say, an F-22 with the aid of such systems is still very costly, but there is no doubt that these systems adds considerably to a country's deterrence.

i did not say china was better than russia. i said china was above the s-300. the exact dimensions of the f-22 are published in books, and it canbe caluculated using pictures cobined with some trigonometry.
stealth technlogy is well research in most countries, and these nations like russia and china can develop radars to find stealth aircraft. they simply havnt feilded theiur own stealth radar yet.

Does anybody know how PAC-3 has performed in actual combat? Particularly in the Gulf Wars? I suspect many of the claims by American manufacturers are about as truthful as a used car salesman.

I think tphuang said earlier that PAC-3 was a ballistic missile defense and not a cruise missile / aircraft defense. But I thought the new SM-3 they are testing is the ballistic missile defense! And didn't PAC-3 almost shoot down an allied aircraft too?

If we know how good the PAC-3 really is, we'll have a better idea how good the AEGIS system really is. And in comparison, how far behind we are if we're just behind the Russians.

Roger604 said:

Does anybody know how PAC-3 has performed in actual combat? Particularly in the Gulf Wars? I suspect many of the claims by American manufacturers are about as truthful as a used car salesman.
I think tphuang said earlier that PAC-3 was a ballistic missile defense and not a cruise missile / aircraft defense. But I thought the new SM-3 they are testing is the ballistic missile defense! And didn't PAC-3 almost shoot down an allied aircraft too?

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Hi Roger,

Here's a blurb on PAC-3 in Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003:



Operation Iraqi Freedom was generally a tremendous success for PATRIOT. During the Iraq war of 2003, PATRIOT batteries succeeded in shooting down all eleven Iraqi TBMs that threatened coalition assets, including one TBM that would have struck a high-level command group location. Echo Battery, 2nd Battalion, 43rd Air Defense Artillery fired and successfully engaged with the first PAC-3 missiles in combat. PATRIOT also provided excellent radar surveillance for coalition assets who lacked a clear picture over much of Iraq.
<snip>
PATRIOT also had two fratricides in Iraq, one against a British RAF Tornado GR4A, the other against an F/A-18 Hornet. The Tornado was engaged because the system mistakenly classified it as an anti-radiation missile (ARM).

=======

Considering the Patriot missile did shoot down a RAF Tornado and F/A-18, we can conclude it's effective vs. aircraft. @_@

The Russian S-300 system, for an example, has been advertised to be effective against aircraft, cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles.

MIGleader said:

i did not say china was better than russia. i said china was above the s-300.

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I'd like to note that there are at least a dozen variants of the S-300 system. The PRC's locally built systems today are prolly much more capable than the original S-300P with the 5V55K missiles, but not the latest (S-300PMU-2/3?).

There was even one vairant of the S-300PS/S-300PM that was armed with tatical nuclear warhead.

adeptitus said:

I'd like to note that there are at least a dozen variants of the S-300 system. The PRC's locally built systems today are prolly much more capable than the original S-300P with the 5V55K missiles, but not the latest (S-300PMU-2/3?).

There was even one vairant of the S-300PS/S-300PM that was armed with tatical nuclear warhead.

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Out of curiousity, what version of S-300 does PRC currently field? And what updates if any have they done to increase its reliability? I've been wondering this for awhile. No doubt they have learned alot from the earliest models.

the pla has the s-300pmu, an early 90s varient, and the s-300pmu1, a early 2000s varient. i believe they also negotiated a deal for 8 batteries of s-300pmu-2 missles in summer 2004.

their have been rumors going around that china wants to upgrade all s-300s and hq-15s in its arsenal to s-400s, but no concret proof yet

MIGleader said:

their have been rumors going around that china wants to upgrade all s-300s and hq-15s in its arsenal to s-400s, but no concret proof yet

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Interesting. But are they going to buy these upgrades from Russian military sources, or are they looking to improve their systems based upon operational experience?

the s-400 is a russian missle. so its more than likely that russia will sell upgrade "kits", which will eventually be replaced by full chinese upgrades.