Chinese purchase of Su-35

Subedei said:

I'm aware that I'm not a party to your and engineer's two way debate. nevertheless, some of your observations are relevant to my analysis. particularly, your above observation raises the question as to whether a chinese participation in the su-35 program would require any logistical sacrifices, by either party, at all.

as i have previously observed, here, shenyang has established its proficiency in constructing and developing the flanker airframe. consequently, we can reasonably expect that there are significant degrees of commonality between sukhoi's and shenyang's processes in this regard. additionally, i believe that the j-11a/b program has established shenyang's capabilities in marrying sukhoi's airframe (and saturn's engines) with chinese avionics, electronics, and weaponry. subsequently, they have further developed these capabilities with the development of the j-15 and j-16.

consequently, as shenyang is already constructing flanker derived airframes (which the su-35 airframe is), outfitting them with chinese avionics and electronics, and equipping them with chinese weapons, i'd argue that, at this point, their logistic chain is ideally situated to accommodate participation in the su-35 program. particularly if that participation comprises cooperation in the airframe construction component of the program. taking this approach would necessitate neither that, either party radically alter their logistical chain, nor that, china increase its dependency upon russia for any technologies. it would, nevertheless, maintain, for the time being, china's dependency upon russia's engine technology. a dependency that, present circumstances inform us, would not constitute a departure from their current logistical practices.

sorry to butt in!

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No problem -- I think engineer and I have more or less reached an impasse anyway.

With regards to SAC integrating chinese avionics into the Su-35... For a small batch of 24 that may be possible (but would present complications in regards to delaying delivery of the airframes, and other likely to emerge difficulties), but I don't think there is or was any intention for china to participate in Su-35 beyond acquiring a small batch. With SAC seemingly now oreinting to J-15 and J-16 production, using their existing flanker construction infrastructure to support Su-35 production (for whatever reason that ends up being) would delay the PLA's much needed naval and strike flankers.

Meanwhile , more news/rumors , this time from ITAR-TASS :

Russia, China prepare contract on Su-35 supplies

PARIS, June 17 (Itar-Tass) - Russia will supply a series of new multirole fights, Su-35, to China in compliance with a contract, which should be prepared by the yearend, an official of the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation told Itar-Tass on Monday...................

thunderchief said:

Meanwhile , more news/rumors , this time from ITAR-TASS :

Russia, China prepare contract on Su-35 supplies

PARIS, June 17 (Itar-Tass) - Russia will supply a series of new multirole fights, Su-35, to China in compliance with a contract, which should be prepared by the yearend, an official of the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation told Itar-Tass on Monday...................

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Click to expand...

I hope the deal include rabbits because that's important.

kwaigonegin said:

I hope the deal include rabbits because that's important.

Click to expand...

But so far it seems that rabbits are the only thing to materialize.

Notice how the signing is always some time in the future in these reports.

[video=youtube_share;6DOuXpnUED8]http://youtu.be/6DOuXpnUED8[/video]

The official theme song to the Chinese Su35 saga, just change 'tomorrow' to 'Su35'.

"Su35, Su35 I love you, Su35,

you're always, a day away."

plawolf said:

Notice how the signing is always some time in the future in these reports.

[video=youtube_share;6DOuXpnUED8]http://youtu.be/6DOuXpnUED8[/video]

The official theme song to the Chinese Su35 saga, just change 'tomorrow' to 'Su35'.

"Su35, Su35 I love you, Su35,

you're always, a day away."

Click to expand...

hahaha...that's funny. this thread is like a zombie thread because it will NEVER DIE. no matter how many times you kill it, it still comes back up! from now it will simmer down for awhile then at the next Zhuhai airshow in 2014 or is it 2015?? this thread will jump back into action in fever pitch. you can wager your house that the Russians will claim that china is going to buy the Su-35......again for the umpteenth time

Subedei said:

I'm aware that I'm not a party to your and engineer's two way debate. nevertheless, some of your observations are relevant to my analysis. particularly, your above observation raises the question as to whether a chinese participation in the su-35 program would require any logistical sacrifices, by either party, at all.

as i have previously observed, here, shenyang has established its proficiency in constructing and developing the flanker airframe. consequently, we can reasonably expect that there are significant degrees of commonality between sukhoi's and shenyang's processes in this regard. additionally, i believe that the j-11a/b program has established shenyang's capabilities in marrying sukhoi's airframe (and saturn's engines) with chinese avionics, electronics, and weaponry. subsequently, they have further developed these capabilities with the development of the j-15 and j-16.

consequently, as shenyang is already constructing flanker derived airframes (which the su-35 airframe is), outfitting them with chinese avionics and electronics, and equipping them with chinese weapons, i'd argue that, at this point, their logistic chain is ideally situated to accommodate participation in the su-35 program. particularly if that participation comprises cooperation in the airframe construction component of the program. taking this approach would necessitate neither that, either party radically alter their logistical chain, nor that, china increase its dependency upon russia for any technologies. it would, nevertheless, maintain, for the time being, china's dependency upon russia's engine technology. a dependency that, present circumstances inform us, would not constitute a departure from their current logistical practices.

sorry to butt in!

Click to expand...

As I have said early on in this thread, if Russia is willing to integrate Chinese avionics then we can entertain the idea of the Su-35 deal. The reality is that the Russians are not willing to do that, as the airframe doesn't worth much. To make the biggest buck, the best solution is to first force the customer to buy the avionics, then force them to buy the munitions to go with avionics, then force them to buy the support equipments for the munitions. That's the kind of deal the Russians have in mind.

Engineer said:

As I have said early on in this thread, if Russia is willing to integrate Chinese avionics then we can entertain the idea of the Su-35 deal. The reality is that the Russians are not willing to do that, as the airframe doesn't worth much. To make the biggest buck, the best solution is to first force the customer to buy the avionics, then force them to buy the munitions to go with avionics, then force them to buy the support equipments for the munitions. That's the kind of deal the Russians have in mind.

Click to expand...

Actually that is not the only case... the Russian is fully confident that the Su-35 would be the best aircraft flying in Chinese inventory as and when the Chinese chose to buy this aircraft. with Russian avionic and munition, the Russian would know what they are dealing with if relationship breakdown.

And I would bet that the Russian even have a code hidden somewhere in the electronic suite of the Su-35 or any other equipment sold to the Chinese, Indians and whoever who chose to buy from them, that would render these equipment useless once conflicts broke out between Russia and these countries.

Engineer said:

As I have said early on in this thread, if Russia is willing to integrate Chinese avionics then we can entertain the idea of the Su-35 deal. The reality is that the Russians are not willing to do that, as the airframe doesn't worth much. To make the biggest buck, the best solution is to first force the customer to buy the avionics, then force them to buy the munitions to go with avionics, then force them to buy the support equipments for the munitions. That's the kind of deal the Russians have in mind.

Click to expand...

Awe!, come on Eng, you mean you don't trust the Russians, all you have to do is look at Putin, actually I can hear him intoning like some old Horror Flick, "Look, Look into my Eyes!", I guess we could call him the Count???? I don't doubt that there is a lot of desire to not be involved with that character in any deal.

Russia’s Sukhoi has rocked the 50th Paris Air Show at Le Bourget with the premiere of its cutting-edge Su-35 fighter. Super-maneuverable even for a Sukhoi, the Su-35 has been dubbed the “UFO” for its outstanding maneuverability.

The Sukhoi Su-35 (NATO classification: Flanker E), Russia’s newest, super-maneuverable, multirole fighter jet has conducted its first training flight at the Paris Air Show, and aircraft industry experts were reportedly wowed by the jet’s performance.

“The plane easily passes from low-speed super-maneuverability mode to high-speed combat flight,” test pilot Sergey Bogdan said. Bogdan will pilot all Su-35 flights at the Paris Air Show. The engines are so powerful that the plane could be pulled out of any complicated situation, like a spin, at pilot’s will, he explained: “All you need is to get with the plane on the same wave, to caress and stroke it because, you know, it is a living being.”



It has top speed of 2,400 km/h, a 3,600 kilometer range, an 18 kilometer ceiling, and an advanced radar system to detect large targets from as far as 400 kilometers.

Probably the only major feature that the Su-35 lacks - and which prevents it from being labeled fifth-generation - is limited stealth capability, as only some parts of its airframe are made of composite material. Nonetheless, it can detect stealth aircraft such as the US’s F-35 at a distance of over 90 kilometers.


The aircraft’s thrust/weight ratio is unique at a kilo of thrust per kilo of aircraft weight, thanks to a pair of brand new 117C jet engines.

This enables Su-35 to perform all current stunts, including Russian specialties such as Pugachev's Cobra, the Frolov Chakra, the Dead Leaf, and the unprecedented Pancake, which is an horizontal 360-degree made turn without losing speed. The Pancake is performed only by the Su-35.

With these characteristics, the Su-35 surpasses practically all modern fighter jets such as France’s Rafale, Sweden’s Gripen, the Eurofighter 2000, and the modernized US F-15, F-16, and F-18. It is on a par with the fifth-generation US F-35 and F-22A, neither of which are currently on the market.


The Su-35 is generating so much interest that the airshow organizers have assigned it a spot right in the middle of the main avenue of the exhibition.

The Russian Air Force currently has 10 Su-35s, to be increased to 48 by the end of 2015.


The first country to buy a Sukhoi Su-35 could be China, as Beijing is already in talks with the manufacturer: “We have signed an intergovernmental agreement on the supply of Su-35 planes to China," Aleksandr Mikheyev, deputy head of Russian arms corporation Rosoboronexport told reporters. "As of today we have a legal base with China. An agreement on the protection of intellectual property has been signed," Mikheyev added. Beijing reportedly intends to buy 24 Su-35s, with a contract due to be signed by the end of 2013.

[video=youtube;UBKvlLzGkvU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBKvlLzGkvU&feature=youtu.be[/video]