Chinese purchase of Su-35

B787, I can completely understand the level of offense Russian observers will take to the theories of Su35 purchase being done out of charity. There is very limited evidence that is so and I honestly do not believe that since there are many better and easier ways of doing such a thing even if it were true.

Like others have said, we don't know why this was done and it's just part of the fun sharing small theories here and hopefully getting real news and spreading it. This is why we're here. Not many believe the charity case and even those who do, believe it to not be 100% or even a large part of the reason to buy this fighter. So to be offended is making a mountain out of a molehill. This forum is one of the better ones. It is filled with intelligent and reasonable people from various backgrounds. We discuss things with relative humility in contrast to the extreme chauvinism and even racism in other well know forums. I think most topics, countries, and people here do get a fair go. If you believe we are all a bunch of silly fanboys, I bet you couldn't even provide a handful of quotes to back that up within context. I can go to one page of ANY other military forum and find a dozen ignorant, unreasonable, racist, stupid, real fanboy comments and show you. I think everyone reading this will know what I mean if they have been observant and not part of the problem.

Look back a few pages and you can see many pro Su-35 views from members including myself who also question Chinese aviation technologies in certain areas or at least express doubt. Hence the discussion about this purchase.

ougoah said:

B787, I can completely understand the level of offense Russian observers will take to the theories of Su35 purchase being done out of charity. There is very limited evidence that is so and I honestly do not believe that since there are many better and easier ways of doing such a thing even if it were true.

Like others have said, we don't know why this was done and it's just part of the fun sharing small theories here and hopefully getting real news and spreading it. This is why we're here. Not many believe the charity case and even those who do, believe it to not be 100% or even a large part of the reason to buy this fighter. So to be offended is making a mountain out of a molehill. This forum is one of the better ones. It is filled with intelligent and reasonable people from various backgrounds. We discuss things with relative humility in contrast to the extreme chauvinism and even racism in other well know forums. I think most topics, countries, and people here do get a fair go. If you believe we are all a bunch of silly fanboys, I bet you couldn't even provide a handful of quotes to back that up within context. I can go to one page of ANY other military forum and find a dozen ignorant, unreasonable, racist, stupid, real fanboy comments and show you. I think everyone reading this will know what I mean if they have been observant and not part of the problem.

Look back a few pages and you can see many pro Su-35 views from members including myself who also question Chinese aviation technologies in certain areas or at least express doubt. Hence the discussion about this purchase.

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I feel compelled to add that though this forum is a lot more civil and fair than many other well known ones it does have its own pattern of biases that both mods and members have been struggling to manage in recent years as many inherently political military issues have come to the fore and in general receive much more attention and noise pollution.

Sometimes I think there is an issue of posters trying too hard too quickly to be right rather than going through the process of discussion, and perhaps taking themselves and everyone else too seriously. At the end of the day the vast majority of us, if not all, are hobbyists even if serious ones as in we don't have first hand access to directly relevant information.

PanAsian said:

I feel compelled to add that though this forum is a lot more civil and fair than many other well known ones it does have its own pattern of biases that both mods and members have been struggling to manage in recent years as many inherently political military issues have come to the fore and in general receive much more attention and noise pollution.

Sometimes I think there is an issue of posters trying too hard too quickly to be right rather than going through the process of discussion, and perhaps taking themselves and everyone else too seriously. At the end of the day the vast majority of us, if not all, are hobbyists even if serious ones as in we don't have first hand access to directly relevant information.

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Exactly, and here we have the Sino Defense post of the day Gentlemen....

ougoah said:

B787, I can completely understand the level of offense Russian observers will take to the theories of Su35 purchase being done out of charity. There is very limited evidence that is so and I honestly do not believe that since there are many better and easier ways of doing such a thing even if it were true.



Look back a few pages and you can see many pro Su-35 views from members including myself who also question Chinese aviation technologies in certain areas or at least express doubt. Hence the discussion about this purchase.

Click to expand...

I mostly follow aviation related topics out of a hobby, i am not an expert, since I am not a pilot but just a humble aircraft modeller and occasionally a Wikipedia editor of aviation related topics, specially about Latin American aviation but mostly in Spanish.


I usually do not reply to people if i see i am going to have a monologue, however for me the issue of why China bought is not that complicated.

I am a big fan of MiG-23, Tu-22M and Su-24, thus i have read several books and websites, as i told one fellow member, the Russians have built several aircraft with interim engines, one of that is MiG-23 and even now Su-57.

So in my opinion the current batch of J-20 do not have good performance the to the lack of TVC nozzles and low thrust in its engines, plus its canards can not be more stealthy due to the lack of TVC nozzles that reduce deflection, the rear part of J-20 is not stealthy and the canards break abruptly the plan forming of the wings and vertical tail despite some people deny it

As long as China has not a better engine its J-20 will have some short comings, if they can not build an engine better for J-11s, then they can not built something better for J-20.
If J-31 has not a good engine then J-20 is less likely to have it.

TVC nozzles is not the unique reason to buy Su-35, but the increased reliability and thrust.

Further more the Su-35 has been modernized in fuselage, avionics and radar.

Su-35 is more or less in the F-15 and Rafale class, i do not know if China has a J-11 with operational AESA, in that i would like to see them.

But in my opinion Su-35 has more advantages than any current operational J-11 or even better maneuverability and acceleration than J-20 or J-31.


So in my opinion they bought it because of the current deficiencies in both Su-27/J-11 variants and J-20, i will not repeat my self so i will not repeat my self trying to convince you.

If you think there is another reason, that is okay with me, in the future when J-20 has better engines and there is a realistic radar assessment of Chinese aircraft well i will tell you if the radar is so good on J-11s and J-20, but i have read the Bolivians rate low the K-8 they bought from China and they want to buy IA-63s from Argentina to replace them.

Of course this might be an isolated incident, but here people over estimate Chinese quality in products and i can tell you many Chinese aerospace products still can not compete without political support from Beijing such as ARJ-21, for example even compared to SSJ-100 and much less with E-170 the aircraft has a very low production rate and hardly can compete in international Markets with Sukhoi superjet.

But of course this is a forum where the vast majority is Chinese expatriates and they get angry if you are critical about some views that over estimates the achievements of Chinese aviation

however if J-20 get a better engine is probable the Su-35 might not be bought by China any more, and this might be the last Su-35 purchase by China.

But if the engine problems remain well they might buy a second batch to complement J-20.

b787 said:

I mostly follow aviation related topics out of a hobby, i am not an expert, since I am not a pilot but just a humble aircraft modeller and occasionally a Wikipedia editor of aviation related topics, specially about Latin American aviation but mostly in Spanish.


I usually do not reply to people if i see i am going to have a monologue, however for me the issue of why China bought is not that complicated.

I am a big fan of MiG-23, Tu-22M and Su-24, thus i have read several books and websites, as i told one fellow member, the Russians have built several aircraft with interim engines, one of that is MiG-23 and even now Su-57.

So in my opinion the current batch of J-20 do not have good performance the to the lack of TVC nozzles and low thrust in its engines, plus its canards can not be more stealthy due to the lack of TVC nozzles that reduce deflection, the rear part of J-20 is not stealthy and the canards break abruptly the plan forming of the wings and vertical tail despite some people deny it

As long as China has not a better engine its J-20 will have some short comings, if they can not build an engine better for J-11s, then they can not built something better for J-20.
If J-31 has not a good engine then J-20 is less likely to have it.

TVC nozzles is not the unique reason to buy Su-35, but the increased reliability and thrust.

Further more the Su-35 has been modernized in fuselage, avionics and radar.

Su-35 is more or less in the F-15 and Rafale class, i do not know if China has a J-11 with operational AESA, in that i would like to see them.

But in my opinion Su-35 has more advantages than any current operational J-11 or even better maneuverability and acceleration than J-20 or J-31.


So in my opinion they bought it because of the current deficiencies in both Su-27/J-11 variants and J-20, i will not repeat my self so i will not repeat my self trying to convince you.

If you think there is another reason, that is okay with me, in the future when J-20 has better engines and there is a realistic radar assessment of Chinese aircraft well i will tell you if the radar is so good on J-11s and J-20, but i have read the Bolivians rate low the K-8 they bought from China and they want to buy IA-63s from Argentina to replace them.

Of course this might be an isolated incident, but here people over estimate Chinese quality in products and i can tell you many Chinese aerospace products still can not compete without political support from Beijing such as ARJ-21, for example even compared to SSJ-100 and much less with E-170 the aircraft has a very low production rate and hardly can compete in international Markets with Sukhoi superjet.

But of course this is a forum where the vast majority is Chinese expatriates and they get angry if you are critical about some views that over estimates the achievements of Chinese aviation

however if J-20 get a better engine is probable the Su-35 might not be bought by China any more, and this might be the last Su-35 purchase by China.

But if the engine problems remain well they might buy a second batch to complement J-20.

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That's one way to look at it. I agree that a lot of members easily get angry when you don't play into their version of how things are and many do overestimate Chinese aerospace industry. Most however are pretty down to earth and have presented a few facts. One of them being that canards can be made stealthy (btw you believe Su-57 to be pretty VLO but not J-20??? strange you criticise J-20 rear but never looked at the unstealthy areas ALL OVER Su-57 but those are automatically fine while small "imperfect" rear design in J-20 and it's not stealthy hahahaha this is what I meant in the other threads. Your hypocrisy is overwhelming) otherwise many proposed 5th gen designs wouldn't feature canards but a couple of American and Korean ones do. Logic dictates that CAC engineers would have gone with a traditional layout if they couldn't find a way to make canards stealthy enough. These people know how to design either layout so they must have chosen this for it's kinematic benefits while being able to maintain stealth at least most of the time. Also alignment can't be the reason why otherwise no matter what the layout is, those surfaces at the front or back will misalign with the wings when they are deflected. So does this also mean F-22 and Su-57 are not stealthy as well? In any case, Su-35 purchase for stealth reasons is untrue since Su-35 is not stealth in any way despite what many Russian news sources claim about RAM and paint etc etc. Shows how credible Russian sources are these days.

Lower than ideal thrust in engines is true. However the existing ones can take the J-20 to supersonic speeds so they are not as shabby as some want to make out. They are still as good as if not better than most 4th gen engines so they'll do until WS-15 is ready. It's not like J-20 is flying with a propeller which is what many would think reading all the usual detractors. So Su-35 purchase for that reason is also likely untrue. 117 is not better or more reliable than late model WS-10x. In fact I would believe it's worse since Russians have had problems with it and want to ditch it ASAP. Chinese experience with Russian engines is similar to Indian ones, woeful. So many problems, accidents, short life, and short MTBO. Purchasing 24 Su-35 just to look at an undesirable engine that was never planned for the J-20 is again an unlikely theory. Now learning about how Russians approached TVC and training for and against it is extremely likely and I bet they are/will be doing this. Other members have mentioned this as well. Seems like people agree there's some value there.

Su-35 is no doubt the best flanker in PLAAF inventory and is a very capable match for F-15K/J, Rafale, Su-30MKI, the best our neighbours have outside Americans. Not 100% sure why the numbers are so low though. My personal belief, after reading other thoughts, is that J-11D either had serious shortcomings or PLAAF just didn't think that much of it to buy it over cheaper and more reliable J-11B. To match the numbers of 4.5 gen fighters our neighbours have and will have soon, J-11D project could be back to the drawing board and Su-35 can help a lot. This has the added benefit of the TVC so many have mentioned. This would explain the smaller numbers yet also explain the purchase. In the meantime, if we see more orders, would seem like PLAAF is very happy with Su-35 and won't bother with J-11D so SAC might just focus on J15 and J16. This next order should have more significant numbers while J-20 first batch roll out with weaker than ideal engines. It'll be many years before J-20 mass production with WS-15 and by then, we'd likely see more Su-35 OR J-11D finally coming out, where J-11D benefits much from Su-35. New batches of Su-35 is for this reason and not about J-20. If J-20 is deficient, we would see remodeling and more invested in J-31. This hasn't been the case and all official sources are claiming how amazing J-20 is compared to the 4th gen in PLAAF. This makes more sense since it is what it's meant to be and does look like it. Now if only the engine is here, it'll be perfect.

On the issue of radars, I think J-11B does not have ESA radar but J-20 J-10 J15 and J16 all do. These are comparable to the best if not better than the best Russian radars. Since Russians have one? ESA model they've tested and made scaled that one model for Fulcrum and Flanker and others have not been fielded, it doesn't show much promise at all. But I'll leave you to your beliefs since I'm sure I'll never convince you of weaker than you imagine Russian industry. Su-35 radar for China is a benefit because it'll give them an idea of what FGFA radars may be like. ARJ-21 is not a key program with heavy backing, C919 is and the other ones with Russia as partners. Chinese planes will not be export successes for a very long time even if the product is fine due to stigma however true or untrue.

TLDR: You love using Su-35 purchase as a pedestal to put everything Russian, even things unrelated to Su-35. All while detracting everything Chinese, even things unrelated to Su-35. Yet you hate the opposite of the spectrum, people who claim Su-35 is charity and for OPFOR or just for intercepting neighbours without giving away signals of usual PLAAF fighters. You guys are all two ends of the extreme and both sides are likely wrong. It's not hard to see you are 100% wrong with a small application of logic. If Chinese aerospace industry is as weak and hopeless as you make it out to be, we'd see much larger orders of Su-35, participation and/or purchase in Su-57 years ago. Sukhoi came asking for China to buy Su-35 many years ago that's a fact. China was invited to join PAKFA project at the start and at every way through, that's also a fact. India never invested the full amount Russia wanted them to and Su-57 is almost entirely Russian (despite what I thought before when I was misinformed about this) so nothing really stopping China from doing that at all. We haven't seen massive remodeling of J-20 or heavy investment into J-31. That would indicate canards are mostly fine for stealth and J-20 is a better all round platform.

So your theories are shaky at best. Meanwhile the other extreme end is less easy to disprove. It's possible that Su-35 purchase could have been done to support and show Russia some solidarity. China promotes Su-35 internationally with this purchase and injects much needed funds into Sukhoi, a company that has helped and assisted in PLAAF's ability for many decades.

ougoah said:

On the issue of radars, I think J-11B does not have ESA radar but J-20 J-10 J15 and J16 all do. These are comparable to the best if not better than the best Russian radars. Since Russians have one? ESA model they've tested and made scaled that one model for Fulcrum and Flanker and others have not been fielded, it doesn't show much promise at all. But I'll leave you to your beliefs since I'm sure I'll never convince you of weaker than you imagine Russian industry. Su-35 radar for China is a benefit because it'll give them an idea of what FGFA radars may be like. ARJ-21 is not a key program with heavy backing, C919 is and the other ones with Russia as partners. Chinese planes will not be export successes for a very long time even if the product is fine due to stigma however true or untrue.

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I will be brief and after this i will let you with your Chinese fanboy claims.

J-20 was designed with many constraints, among them not ideal engines.

Su-57 has the same problem

If 117 is adapted with 2D nozzles will lose at least 10-17% thrust, thus it will basically lose any benefit it has now over Al-31 in thrust, same will be Su-35.

The other problem is drag, the flat belly of J-20 will require more thrust, if you look at an F-15 or MiG-25 rear end you will see the round shape was the least drag configuration.


So both China and Russia decided their aircraft to have rounded ends despite for stealth needs these are not ideal.


What this has to do with Su-35 purchase. well China has no better TVC nozzle nor better engine than 117, the claims they have aircraft with AESA is another fantasy plus the range is also important.

see

Chinese military experts are guardedly optimistic over the international market potentials of China's newly developed fire control radar system, saying that although it is an upgrade of the jet fighters' radar system, China's radar is mainly used for domestic purposes.

The Aviation Industry Corporation of China's Leihua Electronic Technology Research Institute posted an article on its WeChat account on Friday, saying the development of the world's first two-dimensional airborne air cooled active phased array fire control radar, which has been tested during flight evaluation.

The article said that by developing the radar system, the company has successfully replaced pulse-doppler radars on jet fighters with active phased array radars.

The air cooling system of the new radars can reduce the weight burden on the jets, making them fly faster. And the change cycle has also been reduced, which could greatly improve the jets' combat capability. The system could enhance China's national defense capabilities, lead to further progress in developing scientific research hardware and increase the international competitiveness of China's airborne radar system, read the article.

However, Chinese military experts are concerned about the limited applications for such an upgrade.

Considering that the data control bus for earlier models, which are not likely to be compatible with the new radar system, the models for jet fighters to possibly apply such radar upgrade are J11-B or J11-D, Song Zhongping, a military expert who used to serve in the PLA Rocket Force, told the Global Times. Song also noted that such an upgrade for new jet fighters could be costly.

In a commentary on news portal guancha.cn on Saturday, military analyst Du Kaiyuan said the new radar system can spot third-generation jet fighters from at least 200 kilometers and intercept medium range air-to-air missiles. He said Pakistan is interested in using it for its JF-17 Block3 fighter jets, which could open the door to other countries.

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uhm ... 200km it falls short of IRBIS range

It does not say the are operation and as in the case of Russia they say it is expensive uhmmmm so it is expensive and has less range and it is a prototype.


So i will put it simple Su-35 does not seem to be inferior to Chinese J-11.

Now the J-20 has not as stealthy design as you claim its canards will deflect, they are huge, look at a Rafale, the canards on the Chinese jet are huge why? well simple, the weapons bays are ahead of the center of gravity and then it needs lift how they got it? yes with huge flapping canards nothing very stealthy, specially since it has no TVC nozzles that reduce that.

Add China has never designed and tested TVC nozzles not even like the ones seen in the Shinshin.


Since the Chinese could not limit their vertical tail size they added ventral fins, why? no TVC nozzles again to be use in pitch and yaw aerodynamic control, the canard has dihedral basically at an angle different to the vertical tail and sidewalls of its body thus breaking the planform arrangement.


Why ? simple Chinese main trouble was and is engine design.

It might change in the future.
Anyway i will not respond you any more, unless you have a good argument.

solarz said:

Hmmm... Am I missing something? Why is everyone so convinced that this purchase is a one-shot deal? Why can't they be just a trial? As in, if the planes work well, China will be buying more?

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Because China is building its own aircraft that are meeting its needs.

J-10B
J-11D
J-16
J-20

Now getting some SU-35s helps IMHO because I believe no matter what else, that China will get a good look at and be able to learn from and replicate some engine technology they want and need.

But those SU-35 are all set up and geared for Russian weapons and electronics and comm systems. This is not a good thing for the Chinese.

They have spent many years getting to a point where they are self sufficient with those aircraft above that operate with all Chinese weapons, comms, and electronics. And the J-10B, the J-11D, the J-16 and the J-20 will meet the Chinese needs for many years to come and enable the full spectrum of the Chinese aviation industry to be involved without any dependency on Russian equipment.

If they learn something from those SU-35 engines they will incorporate it into their own domestic designs.

One thing I am sure the PLAAF does NOT want is to buy more aircraft dependent on Russian secondary systems.

b787 said:

I will be brief and after this i will let you with your Chinese fanboy claims.

J-20 was designed with many constraints, among them not ideal engines.

Su-57 has the same problem

If 117 is adapted with 2D nozzles will lose at least 10-17% thrust, thus it will basically lose any benefit it has now over Al-31 in thrust, same will be Su-35.

The other problem is drag, the flat belly of J-20 will require more thrust, if you look at an F-15 or MiG-25 rear end you will see the round shape was the least drag configuration.


So both China and Russia decided their aircraft to have rounded ends despite for stealth needs these are not ideal.


What this has to do with Su-35 purchase. well China has no better TVC nozzle nor better engine than 117, the claims they have aircraft with AESA is another fantasy plus the range is also important.

see
uhm ... 200km it falls short of IRBIS range

It does not say the are operation and as in the case of Russia they say it is expensive uhmmmm so it is expensive and has less range and it is a prototype.


So i will put it simple Su-35 does not seem to be inferior to Chinese J-11.

Now the J-20 has not as stealthy design as you claim its canards will deflect, they are huge, look at a Rafale, the canards on the Chinese jet are huge why? well simple, the weapons bays are ahead of the center of gravity and then it needs lift how they got it? yes with huge flapping canards nothing very stealthy, specially since it has no TVC nozzles that reduce that.

Add China has never designed and tested TVC nozzles not even like the ones seen in the Shinshin.


Since the Chinese could not limit their vertical tail size they added ventral fins, why? no TVC nozzles again to be use in pitch and yaw aerodynamic control, the canard has dihedral basically at an angle different to the vertical tail and sidewalls of its body thus breaking the planform arrangement.


Why ? simple Chinese main trouble was and is engine design.

It might change in the future.
Anyway i will not respond you any more, unless you have a good argument.

Click to expand...

These Russian fanboys still think they on top of the world while they can't even read. When was it said Su-35 is inferior to J-11x? Please learn to read first before. You clearly can't understand even one simple thing I've said. So rest is useless to me. China has better radars than Russian. Deal with it. There's mountains of evidence for this. Russians are still playing around with PESA and can't even put an AESA on a ship let alone a plane. China's been doing this for several years now. Russia has been suffering for a long time now. They can't even build large capacity ships anymore. French Mistrals won't be coming to your navy despite the loss of ability. Aerospace industry is only alive thanks to China and Indian money. Without that, there would be even less happening. Big talk are better suited for ones who have delivered goods not just talked about it. To be honest I can't understand you well when you describe J-20 flaws so I won't go into that.

"If 117 is adapted with 2D nozzles will lose at least 10-17% thrust, thus it will basically lose any benefit it has now over Al-31 in thrust, same will be Su-35." I don't understand what this has to do with anything? No one even talked about this. Yeah we know changing the shape of the petals will reduce thrust. So what? No one is even talking about that. 117 engine is still not that much better than late AL-31 or later model WS-10 so buying Su-35 for this alone cannot be the reason.

B787 you have always been here to talk up Russian stuff while pretending to just be an enthusiast. You are the one with an agenda. We're just happily discussing this purchase fairly with no one offending Russians at all. It doesn't need you to come and defend or explain with your already disproven ridiculous stupid theories.

Would it make you happy to hear that Russians are the best and little Chinamen will never beat out you guys. Chinese wealth is all pretend fake stuff like all their rubbish. Russians live in paradise if not for the bloody Americans and dodgy Chinese who copy all your stuff. China pretends to be able to make AESA. It's impossible for them to do it in real life. J-20 only pretends to be stealthy so CPC can show off a fake stealth fighter to its citizens. Meanwhile Russians already have AESA, space interceptor, super stealth PAKDA bomber, and Su-57 which is like F-22 and F-35 combined hence its designation. Chinese fanboys like me and others here are delusional while we slave away for $2/month in our sweatshop factories. LOL. Give it 20 to 30 years and you'll see how Russia becomes the backside of the world if it isn't already. I hope China abandons Russia. Why suffer all this hate from these guys while we're giving them gold.