Chinese purchase of Su-35

b787

Captain
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hey Fatty who is fatter? who is thinner?
hey fatty do you know why they are call drop tanks? he fatty who is thinner
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hey fatty you got extenal you got so tired two air to ground and two amraam you have such small pouch, hey fatty you got externals hey fatty you got externals hey fatty

chNtSWL.jpg
 
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vesicles

Colonel
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hey Fatty who is fatter? who is thinner?
hey fatty do you know why they are call drop tanks? he fatty who is thinner
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hey fatty you got extenal you got so tired two air to ground and two amraam you have such small pouch, hey fatty you got externals hey fatty you got externals hey fatty

chNtSWL.jpg

A series of small objects would have a larger total surface area than a single large object.

And large surface area gives more opportunities for signal reflection and less stealth.

And you will always get much larger surface area with all those missiles hanging off the wings.
 
I got your point. You argued explanations don't have to be mutually exclusive, and I was say in a vacuum they don't have to be, but if we recognize certain details, considerations, or facts to be true or valid, then different explanations can and often do become mutually exclusive. You can either craft the explanation to fit with known circumstances and conditions, or reject the premises of those conditions and circumstances, in which case you'd have to make an argument for why.

I presume by falling back to a bromide about how each side has different assumptions so we can't know for sure which explanations are right you are trying to reject or at least cast question of the specific circumstances or conditions that would suggest your explanation is in fact mutually exclusive to other explanations and the basic facts and details I posited in my earlier response, but you didn't actually present any reasons or mount any arguments for *why* the premises behind the arguments counter to yours might be false or wrong.

Note, this isn't simply a matter of two sides making different assumptions. We do have, at least on some presumptive basis, actual facts and details that we can probably regard as sound and dependable. For example, anecdotes about China trying to negotiate down the number of planes they were buying or Russia refusing to localize the Su-35's avionics or open its systems to allow for integration with China's aren't matters of fictional speculations. If you're going to reject these details in how you formulate an explanation for the purchase you're going to need to explain your rationale.

The thing is I already did in multiple posts, though not necessarily replying to you so don't know if you saw them.
 

b787

Captain
A series of small objects would have a larger total surface area than a single large object.

And large surface area gives more opportunities for signal reflection and less stealth.

And you will always get much larger surface area with all those missiles hanging off the wings.
you are wrong since as early as 1950 aerodynamics engineers knew internal weapon bays but they always used external hardpoints, (only american fighters before the age of stealth with internal weapons bay were F-111 a lousy fighter and F-106 a huge aircraft highly under powered) the only true advantage of F-35 over the F-16 is stealth, yes only stealth, the rest you are wrong 5th generation fighters need more powerful engines because of the extra volume and size which causes extra drag, with high powerful engines F-22 can achieve similar numbers to a clean F-15 and with TVC nozzles higher agility.


If you want to know a secret as long as China does not get a decent engine for J-20, Su-35 will have better acceleration and agility. Yes J-20 is stealthier than Su-35 but it is not more agile as long as it is powered by lower yield engines than F-22 and in the Future Su-57, do you like it? i do not think so, but that is the true

however F-22 having better engines in WVR can be beaten
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Is it hard to beat F-22? of course first you have to find it, but unbeatable no it is not Rafale and Eurofighters can beat it, and So is Su-35, it is easy? no it is not, possible yes why? pound per pound Rafale will dogfight with F-22 on par thanks to excellent aerodynamics less compromised than F-35 or J-20.


For J-20 to be able to match Rafale it will need better engines and TVC nozzles, it might have better stealth but not better kinematics, that is Why Su-35 was bought, despite China has J-20
 
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I got your point. You argued explanations don't have to be mutually exclusive, and I was say in a vacuum they don't have to be, but if we recognize certain details, considerations, or facts to be true or valid, then different explanations can and often do become mutually exclusive. You can either craft the explanation to fit with known circumstances and conditions, or reject the premises of those conditions and circumstances, in which case you'd have to make an argument for why.

I presume by falling back to a bromide about how each side has different assumptions so we can't know for sure which explanations are right you are trying to reject or at least cast question of the specific circumstances or conditions that would suggest your explanation is in fact mutually exclusive to other explanations and the basic facts and details I posited in my earlier response, but you didn't actually present any reasons or mount any arguments for *why* the premises behind the arguments counter to yours might be false or wrong.

Note, this isn't simply a matter of two sides making different assumptions. We do have, at least on some presumptive basis, actual facts and details that we can probably regard as sound and dependable. For example, anecdotes about China trying to negotiate down the number of planes they were buying or Russia refusing to localize the Su-35's avionics or open its systems to allow for integration with China's aren't matters of fictional speculations. If you're going to reject these details in how you formulate an explanation for the purchase you're going to need to explain your rationale.

The thing is I already did in multiple posts, though not necessarily replying to you so don't know if you saw them.

Meant to say more but got distracted.

I explained how things might support my position that is, not per se how they would invalidate others'. There is insufficient information to validate or invalidate plenty of positions all around, at the same time all it takes is changing assumptions if one wants to insist on a call. You are looking for a level of confidence at a level of detail with a position which I don't think is possible with any position regarding this topic.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Meant to say more but got distracted.

I explained how things might support my position that is, not per se how they would invalidate others'. There is insufficient information to validate or invalidate plenty of positions all around, at the same time all it takes is changing assumptions if one wants to insist on a call. You are looking for a level of confidence at a level of detail with a position which I don't think is possible with any position regarding this topic.
And on the contrary I think the details we do have does allow for a certain degree of confidence. If you don't mind me asking (because I don't think you directly addressed this in your earlier comments), what do you make of the following anecdotes, that China wanted to make a smaller purchase and that they were refused the right to open up the Su-35s systems for modification and integration into their own? How do you think this might affect the likelihood for future purchases?
 

Engineer

Major
About why they bought Su-35 you have to see two important points.
Stealth is not invisibility to radars, it is only lower reflectivity, if the radar is weak, the detection range is just a few km.

To put it in context, a MiG-23 will detect F-22 probably at 10-20 km from it, but a Su-35 might be in the range of 100-70km of Range.

However the Su-35 has the ability of group scanning, via data link, MiG-31s can sweep areas and overlap their individual radar ranges and via data link they can survey 600km.

So a group of Su-35 can patrol an area and close the gaps of their individual radars plus they have data link so their IRST system can share information via data link.


Add AWACS, radar ground stations, etc etc.
F-35 can share data, too. A group of Su-35 will still be detected first due to lack of stealth.

So for China like any other nation 4th generation fighters are not going to be substitute with 5th generation fighters for a long time.
Wrong. China has already started the switch by discontinuing further development on air-superiority version of J-11, and shifting the focus of the Flanker platform to more ground-attack roles.

J-11s and Su-35 will be at least flying for another 10-20 years, why? well simple radars are advancing too.
Radar is advancing, and when Su-35 can see further, the F-35 can see even further. In the end, the side without stealth remains in disadvantage.

I can assure you a fighter like Rafale or Su-35 will beat F-35 in WVR, thus if you detect a 5th generation; a 4.5 generation can beat it, it is similar to the Vietnam war era when the less maneuverable american fighters were defeated by older MiG-17s and MiG-21s and that can include fighters like F-111.
I can assure you the Su-35 will never get the chance to get close enough to do WVR engagement. This assertion of mine has already been proven in multiple exercises performed in US, and recently in China. The only time non-stealth fighters can get close enough to stealth fighters is when the latter permit such an occurrence.

The reason is stealth imposes so much restriction into the aerodynamics and weight that the fighters need to remain undetected to fight, otherwise they have no advantage at all.
That's just an excuse Russian give because they are not advanced enough to make the two work together.
 
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Engineer

Major
you are wrong since as early as 1950 aerodynamics engineers knew internal weapon bays but they always used external hardpoints, (only american fighters before the age of stealth with internal weapons bay were F-111 a lousy fighter and F-106 a huge aircraft highly under powered) the only true advantage of F-35 over the F-16 is stealth, yes only stealth, the rest you are wrong 5th generation fighters need more powerful engines because of the extra volume and size which causes extra drag, with high powerful engines F-22 can achieve similar numbers to a clean F-15 and with TVC nozzles higher agility.
Su-57 and Su-35 are both much larger with more powerful engines than MiG-15. By your flawed reasoning above, Su-57 and Su-35 are both more draggy and inferior to MiG-15. You should phone Russian Defense Ministry and tell them to stop procuring Su-57 and Su-35 and restart production of the smaller MiG-15 instead. LOL!

See, none of what you have claimed has relevance to reality. You claim more powerful engines is bad, but Russia plans to field more powerful engine on Su-35 and Su-57. You claim stealth is useless, but Russia tries to incorporate stealth features into the Su-57 and invest heavily in counter-stealth measure. You claim internal weapon bay is useless, but Russia tries to hide weapons internally on the Su-57 as well. The difference between Russia vis-a-vis China and US is that Russia failed whereas the latter succeeded making all three areas work.


If you want to know a secret as long as China does not get a decent engine for J-20, Su-35 will have better acceleration and agility. Yes J-20 is stealthier than Su-35 but it is not more agile as long as it is powered by lower yield engines than F-22 and in the Future Su-57, do you like it? i do not think so, but that is the true

however F-22 having better engines in WVR can be beaten

Is it hard to beat F-22? of course first you have to find it, but unbeatable no it is not Rafale and Eurofighters can beat it, and So is Su-35, it is easy? no it is not, possible yes why? pound per pound Rafale will dogfight with F-22 on par thanks to excellent aerodynamics less compromised than F-35 or J-20.


For J-20 to be able to match Rafale it will need better engines and TVC nozzles, it might have better stealth but not better kinematics, that is Why Su-35 was bought, despite China has J-20
You just contradicted yourself. You claim J-20 can't be good without decent engines, then claim fighters like F-22 can be beaten anyway even with good engines. If having good engines is important, then Su-35 and Su-57 will lose because American engines are better. If engine capabilities are not important, Su-35 and Su-57 will still lose because of lack of stealth. Do you like it? I don't think so, but what I am saying is the truth.
 
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Figaro

Senior Member
Registered Member
Su-57 and Su-35 are both much larger with more powerful engines than MiG-15. By your flawed reasoning above, Su-57 and Su-35 are both more draggy and inferior to MiG-15. You should phone Russian Defense Ministry and tell them to stop procuring Su-57 and Su-35 and restart production of the smaller MiG-15 instead. LOL!

See, none of what you have claimed has relevance to reality. You claim more powerful engines is bad, but Russia plans to field more powerful engine on Su-35 and Su-57. You claim stealth is useless, but Russia tries to incorporate stealth features into the Su-57 and invest heavily in counter-stealth measure. You claim internal weapon bay is useless, but Russia tries to hide weapons internally on the Su-57 as well. The difference between Russia vis-a-vis China and US is that Russia failed whereas the latter succeeded making all three areas work.



You just contradicted yourself. You claim J-20 can't be good without decent engines, then claim fighters like F-22 can be beaten anyway even with good engines. If having good engines is important, then Su-35 and Su-57 will lose because American engines are better. If engine capabilities are not important, Su-35 and Su-57 will still lose because of lack of stealth. Do you like it? I don't think so, but what I am saying is the truth.
I think b787 receives most of his news from Sputnik and RT. These Russian outlets always claim something ludicrous like the PAK FA will slaughter F-35s like turkeys or how their S-400 will intercept any ICBM will 90% probability rate. They intentionally play down aircraft such as the F-22, J-20, or F-35 because they know that their beloved PAK FA probably cannot compete. And that's not even mentioning their 3D TVC "wunderwaffe" ... it now appears that the Russians are desperate to downplay Chinese military advancements as the latter has already surpassed them in several key areas.
 
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