Chinese purchase of Su-35

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Ok So China is buying Su35 for political reasons, why ? What does China owe Russia even more why would China want to please Russia by handing them billions for a aircraft which has little operational need ?

Big country's can pull these contracts with little country's that's when political leverage works, but China and Russia are two very big country's this carrot and stick approach is not applicable here

I am really confused about this deal just doesn't make any sense

I hope China did not just give into to Russian pressure and got bullied into this deal, China can buy gas and oil from Russia because of politics but fighters in 2016?

J11D, J16, J10B and J20 then comes Su35?

Not sure if this was a wise use of money by China
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Ok So China is buying Su35 for political reasons, why ? What does China owe Russia even more why would China want to please Russia by handing them billions for a aircraft which has little operational need ?

I am really confused about this deal just doesn't make any sense

Not sure if this was a wise use of money by China
The only thing that makes any sense here , at least to me, is that the Chinese either expect, or plan, to get better/newer/higher tech engine technology form these aircraft.

They will find use for the 25 aircraft for sure...but given the numbers of new J11s, J15s, and particularly J20s the Chinese are going to build, 25 SU-35s is not going to make a hill of beans difference in the long run.

But the engine tech might.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I think for the whole story regardless if a few of us "fans" don't understand or do not like that decision, the PLAAF surely has its reason ... and fine and IMO very reasonable summary was posted at the CDF (by SARguy):


I was chatting with my friend at his GSI office when the news broke (MoD confirmation of the Su-35-deal). He smiled and said there is definite smell from the Sovremenny deal over two decades ago. Time would tell what are included (or not included) in the fine prints. For the moment, I think Sukhoi badly needs the contract, the business, the marketing effect and the hard cash. Russia would gain from diplomatic and strategic fronts for having China continues to be a major customer of its military equipment. As for us, 24 frames won't do anything to alter our existing defense posture. The purchase would deepen the defense cooperation of the two giants which carries the implied reality of de facto alliance The contract would serve to enhance and reinforce the overall bilateral relationship and give addition meaning to the much advertised " Sino-Russia Comprehensive Strategic Collaborative Partnership". For mere 2 billion dollars, give or take, in exchange for win/win is good business, big BANG for the buck for both countries.


Deino
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Ok So China is buying Su35 for political reasons, why ? What does China owe Russia even more why would China want to please Russia by handing them billions for a aircraft which has little operational need ?

Big country's can pull these contracts with little country's that's when political leverage works, but China and Russia are two very big country's this carrot and stick approach is not applicable here

I am really confused about this deal just doesn't make any sense

I hope China did not just give into to Russian pressure and got bullied into this deal, China can buy gas and oil from Russia because of politics but fighters in 2016?

J11D, J16, J10B and J20 then comes Su35?

Not sure if this was a wise use of money by China

Pressure and bullying tend to be counter productive when dealing with China.

The best, and pretty much, only way to get China to agree to something is to offer something in return.

I think the timing of the deal is significant.

What happened in 2015 that didn't happen in all the previous years when Russia was trying its very best to push the deal through?

The most stand out event is direct Russian military intervention in Syria.

Seems like a far away place and a conflict in which China has no vested interest until you factor in the reports of Chinese terrorists joining in and getting training and experience in that conflict.

So China has a problem, the same as most western countries and Russia in fact, in that it has its own citizens joining and training with ISIS, who are likely if not certain to return home one day to launch attacks.

The solution to that problem is the same as the one applied by western nations and Russia - a multi-pronged approach ranging from deterrence to interception (both at departure and upon return) and direct action liquidation of dangerous individuals while they are training and fighting abroad.

China could easily do all the steps except for the most direct and, arguably, effective one - direct action on foreign soil. Well, not without getting directly in the fight as well, which China is thus far reluctant to do.

Here is where Russia comes in.

Russia does China a solid by putting the terrorists China is most concerned about (and who are unlikely to be on any western kill list) on their to-bomb list, and China does Russia a solid by buying a fighter jet it doesn't really need or want.

$2bn is a lot of money, but China is getting a decent fighter out of it, and even without that part, it would probably end up spending more if it joined the fight against ISIS itself. So on the whole, its a pretty good deal for China and Russia, so everyone goes away happy. Well everyone except for the terrorists, but I doubt anyone here would loose any sleep over that. :p
 
I think for the whole story regardless if a few of us "fans" don't understand or do not like that decision, the PLAAF surely has its reason ... and fine and IMO very reasonable summary was posted at the CDF (by SARguy):
...

...

$2bn is a lot of money, but China is getting a decent fighter out of it, and even without that part, it would probably end up spending more if it joined the fight against ISIS itself. So on the whole, its a pretty good deal for China and Russia, so everyone goes away happy. Well everyone except for the terrorists, but I doubt anyone here would loose any sleep over that. :p

I agree with what your posts say regarding the deal except for $2bn being significant for either country. It's not, but maybe for Sukhoi.
 
The only thing that makes any sense here , at least to me, is that the Chinese either expect, or plan, to get better/newer/higher tech engine technology form these aircraft.

They will find use for the 25 aircraft for sure...but given the numbers of new J11s, J15s, and particularly J20s the Chinese are going to build, 25 SU-35s is not going to make a hill of beans difference in the long run.

But the engine tech might.

While that's true from a technology perspective I think Russia has too much to lose on this to be willing to sign any deal at all unless it's desperate, which it may be at this point from the companies' perspective. I guess we will see in the future if China reverse engineers or buys a number of these engines from Russia.
 

schenkus

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do we know how happy the PLAAF is with the development of chinese fighter planes and engines ?
As there is no public roadmap we can't really tell if development of J11D, J16, WS-15,... is keeping up with the promises made to the air force.

I don't want to suggest that the PLAAF is unhappy with the chinese aircraft makers, but if they were angry about unkept promises buying 24 Su-35 (about a year of chinese flanker production) would be a clear way of saying "keep to your development timetables or we will have to find other solutions".
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The only thing that makes any sense here , at least to me, is that the Chinese either expect, or plan, to get better/newer/higher tech engine technology form these aircraft.

They will find use for the 25 aircraft for sure...but given the numbers of new J11s, J15s, and particularly J20s the Chinese are going to build, 25 SU-35s is not going to make a hill of beans difference in the long run.

But the engine tech might.

Agree completely. The engines are key.

If it accelerates things by even 1 year, it will be worth the money.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
Lots of views and opinions but I think after some filtering we get to this

First to say China is concerned or want to to take out "terrorists" by Russia is a non starter, it's like saying UK took down Gaddafi in 2011 because he supported IRA in 1980s, that's not even the geo political situation

Also Russia is not fighting any terrorist in Syria they are supporting Assad plain and simple again no need for wild guesses

Yes China has some unrest in the North West but let's not blow things out of proportion and link it to come conspiracy theory's

Second $2 billion no matters whose money it is is ALOT of money no one has that kind of money just to throw around

The most probably and most likely is the engine issue which I think ranks high on the agenda but $2 billion for engines??

My personal take is that Russia is not a good friend of China, and vice versa (maybe some chinese friends won't like me saying) but it's a co operation based on necessity as neither has any alternative, other opinions existing and China and Russia might even be enemy's but there is no other choice here

It does not matter what Russia get it's what China gets, it's hard to see that China would put it's credibility on the line and opt for Su35 putting into question decades of hard work on the Flankers it's operated and denting the pride of its current new generation fighters like J10B and J20 but that's exactly what they have seem to have done

It's like me setting up my own business moving away from my previous employer and then once I have established and surpassed by previous employer I go back to him and buy his produce and sell it in my shop, that's a tough pill to swallow

I think Deino posted the right angle here, I think this is dirty politics
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Well, if they get the right technology for their engines, and make significant advances as a result...believe you me, it will be worth two billion.

Not for the engines themselves, but for the information and progress they can impart to the Chinese jet engine industry.

In the end...Father time will tell all.
 
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